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Original poster

So, Keir Starmer is intending to remove charitable status

299 replies

BadgerB · 26/09/2021 07:06

He intends to use the money raised to "shake-up" the State schools.

Has he thought this through - the number of children whose parents just about manage fees, who will then transfer their kids to state schools.

How many? How much will this cost? And how soon can the necessary expansion be effected?

Of course, the really rich will be able to dig deeper into their pockets

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 26/09/2021 08:29

I agree re pp on knowing detail on bursaries etc

But the other element is independent schools do have to reach out in various ways. People may think this too small but will it completely stop?

As an o/s person I agree on the sector being attractive to many

How many small schools will cease?

It all needs numbers and clearer benefits

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 26/09/2021 08:30

Oh god no please don’t upset the wealthy….Grin
Private schools are really only for the wealthy, when I was growing up (and went to one), teachers and car salesmen sent their children- now you have to be extremely well off to send your child so you why not throw on some tax!

RishiSunaksFrontDoor · 26/09/2021 08:32

Good. Long overdue.

Newgirls · 26/09/2021 08:34

It’s a good idea.

Places like eton pay for scholarships and bursaries from ex students. I think they even pay back some of their charitable status tax break to actual charities.

He will have discussed this with some of the leading private schools. If a private school is relying on charitable status to survive they really aren’t a very robust business.

MarshaBradyo · 26/09/2021 08:37

@Newgirls

It’s a good idea.

Places like eton pay for scholarships and bursaries from ex students. I think they even pay back some of their charitable status tax break to actual charities.

He will have discussed this with some of the leading private schools. If a private school is relying on charitable status to survive they really aren’t a very robust business.

And then what? So it goes under and students go to state

Their state taxes are paid currently but not used.

Does it help the system if the not very robust ones go under?

Monkeytennis97 · 26/09/2021 08:38

@annie335 because if it benefits the 94% in state education that's got to be good. One of the reasons I sent him to a private school was class sizes/individual teacher time and attention. Hopefully more money in state schools could lead to more staff and smaller class sizes (Being a tad idealistic I know!).

Placido · 26/09/2021 08:39

@MarshaBradyo Our local private make sure it is ticking its charitable status boxes by providing a swimming pool for local people to use (and pay for). Think we could survive that change.

meditrina · 26/09/2021 08:39

@Placido

Which would hit parents pockets more - Boris’s second term plan to put VAT on fees or Starmer’s first term plan to remove charitable status?
VAT on fees. Even a 5% rate is £300 per term on £6k fees, and once imposed, would it really stay low?

Removal of charitable status without requiring the charity to wind up (in accordance with current law governing the charitable sector) will have a one-off and absorbable cost. Remember many schools are legally businesses anyhow. It's a model that works. And yes, you'll have been unlucky in pass-the-parcel if it comes in when your DC are school age and in a school that is a charity. But once it's done it's done.

VAT and changes of rate (even if they start low) would be a far greater worry to me

On £6k termly fees, new tax at

5% - adds £300
10% - adds £600 (more than likely cost of removing charitable status)
15% - adds £900
20% - adds £1200

Placido · 26/09/2021 08:40

@Monkeytennis97
Presumably this is also about the teacher pension crisis that has already hit private schools and eventually will hit state schools?

VanCleefArpels · 26/09/2021 08:41

It will lead to the closure of many smaller less financially robust private schools, particularly preps who literally go from year to year on the fumes dreading any more than 4-5 pupils leaving which would seriously impact the bottom line. In those very local areas the impact on state schools would be considerable

Elephantsparade · 26/09/2021 08:41

Why would they automatically go to a state school if they picked a precarious independent that was dependent in its charitable status. Surely some would gravitate to less precarious independents or two struggling independents would merge.

meditrina · 26/09/2021 08:42

@Newgirls

It’s a good idea.

Places like eton pay for scholarships and bursaries from ex students. I think they even pay back some of their charitable status tax break to actual charities.

He will have discussed this with some of the leading private schools. If a private school is relying on charitable status to survive they really aren’t a very robust business.

Eton is not a good example for this - too much of an outlier, and like a handful of other schools, there have been specific Acts of Parliament about them. I think they might need separate unpicking.
Iamthewombat · 26/09/2021 08:43

Nice one Keir Starmer. He’s grown a pair at last.

Placido · 26/09/2021 08:44

@VanCleefArpels often those tiny privates are hardly able to manage to provide more than a state school can anyway, the only difference is slightly longer day. In the nicest possible way they are often underfunded, understaffed and very stale with barely enough children for a sports team. Parents might be glad to move children to a better funded state school from such schools.

trama · 26/09/2021 08:47

Good. How can a charity only benefit the richest? How is that justifiable?

Presumably the tax paid if the rules are changed will help fund the increase in state school pupils which may result.

meditrina · 26/09/2021 08:47

There is no VAT on training and education anyway, so that's not going to happen whoever said that!

Actually I think it could. Before Brexit, no.

But now we can set our own VAT then yes. The way it's currently set up covers nursery and university fees as well as school fees, but does not cover crammers. So I'd say it could be done, but again there is potential for unintended consequences. Nowhere near as many as for changing the law on definition of a charity though

Newgirls · 26/09/2021 08:52

Does anyone know of a small private prep that would close? The ones near here are very robust with plenty of applicants. If they really need more income they could look at hiring out the hall etc like local primaries. If they increase fees then maybe some families won’t use them but the next in the queue will. They might become slightly less selective but is that really a bad thing at age 4?

throttlebottom · 26/09/2021 08:52

How would this affect independent Special Schools? Parents don't choose those schools bacause they are wealthy, but because it is the only education that meet their child's needs. Some families pay fees, some are paid for by Local Authorities - but if a 20% increase is then passed on to the LA, you can bet that the LA will have to cut budgets elsewhere.

Placido · 26/09/2021 08:54

@meditrina yes I think Boris is very much going down the VAT path - for once being more else solve than Starmer. Also making the changes at the top end of education with university contextual offers and quotas, and big changes to recruitment practice. Article in The Times today about a private school girl going to America as didn’t think she would breeze in to Oxford these days. Which is fine if you want to go to university in America but many don’t.
I think with changes in society as well less and less people want to put their children in to the position of being an underserved figure of hate.

MarshaBradyo · 26/09/2021 08:55

[quote Placido]@meditrina yes I think Boris is very much going down the VAT path - for once being more else solve than Starmer. Also making the changes at the top end of education with university contextual offers and quotas, and big changes to recruitment practice. Article in The Times today about a private school girl going to America as didn’t think she would breeze in to Oxford these days. Which is fine if you want to go to university in America but many don’t.
I think with changes in society as well less and less people want to put their children in to the position of being an underserved figure of hate.[/quote]
Placido I googled but couldn’t see anything.

Is there a link to Johnson and VAT proposal? Thanks

Newgirls · 26/09/2021 08:55

Of course eton is the Uber example. But in Herts for example the private schools are like Eton in that they are very successful eg Habs, high school for girls, St Albans school for boys. All doing very well financially. Can’t think of a private in Herts that is struggling?

Placido · 26/09/2021 08:56

@MarshaBradyo DH is in that world. Whisperings.

Islamorada · 26/09/2021 08:57

It is Tory for me in the elections.

Fifthtimelucky · 26/09/2021 08:58

@Newgirls there are three independent schools in my area that have closed in the last 10 years or so: two small girls schools taking 11-18 yr olds and one boys prep school.

Another girls prep school was struggling financially but has survived by being taken over by an academy chain that has both independent and state schools).

MarshaBradyo · 26/09/2021 08:58

Oh right. Will have to wait and see - and vote accordingly ;