So, Keir Starmer is intending to remove charitable status

[BadgerB]

He intends to use the money raised to "shake-up" the State schools.

Has he thought this through - the number of children whose parents just about manage fees, who will then transfer their kids to state schools.

How many? How much will this cost? And how soon can the necessary expansion be effected?

Of course, the really rich will be able to dig deeper into their pockets

The children who would really benefit from bursaries (living in true poverty, parents who can't/won't support their school work) seldom get bursaries as their parents don't know about bursaries. Eton is very different to the other schools in this regard. Many of the children on bursaries in this country come from middle class homes with supportive parents and would be ok in the state system for this reason. That doesn't mean all parents behave like the ones I mentioned though, most are straight up with their financial disclosures of course- they are an extreme and they annoy lots of people at the school the girls go to.

[quote Placido]@MarshaBradyo
We have friends with a house in grandparents name, who rent a house and put all their expenses through their catering business. They have two children on 100% boarding bursaries.
They also have exotic and glamorous holidays, throw big parties, buy tons of clothes, go to endless pop concerts (when we could do such things anyway!)
They drive crap cars though as these are visible.
Not the norm, but they exist - we all know some.[/quote]
Sounds bad. Fraudulent.

Although we all know some - not I don’t. I know people with a lot of money but not people who would commit fraud on that scale.

1. Many of the parents sending their kids to independent schools are already MASSIVE overcontributors to the system via tax & save the state system money.

1. As private school becomes more and more unobtainable to the normal professionals who could afford it years ago, more of them will send their kids to state schools. Last I heard, many of the decent ones were woefully oversubscribed.

1. Kids of highly paid, motivated parents are the ones who can afford to move to a good catchment area, which they definitely would do, and will just snap up the best state schools & grammar schools, so less space for other people's kids. They will also just top up with tutoring, so exactly the same result

1. Private schools will no longer be under any pressure to share facilities with local schools

1. The issue with lots of schools is disruptive kids due to poor parenting from home imo, as lots of the teachers imo are superb. Used to work in an inner city London secondary school & the level of disruption and low amount of work they got done was shocking.

Personally think this will just increase the divide as new school spaces will not miraculously free up. If only 7% go to private school any tax raised is not going to move the needle for the broader system. Government already has more than enough money via high taxation on EVERYTHING to improve schools.

This is just a measure to try to win back those who are jealous of wealthier people.

@MarshaBradyo I agree, and like I said people are very cross with them.
Do you agree however that children from truly impoverished homes seldom get bursaries?

[quote Placido]@MarshaBradyo I agree, and like I said people are very cross with them.
Do you agree however that children from truly impoverished homes seldom get bursaries?[/quote]
I don’t actually but we use a school with incredible provision.

One of the older London ones and I know how strict they are re finances.

Some will commit fraud as some friends described but the real children who lose out will be above.

I’m surprised people are ok with it and friends - over being just very cross.

@MarshaBradyo we are rural and I am yet to meet a working class family who have a bursary.

@PeachesPumpkin "We should focus on the raising the standard of lower end of achievers not the top end."

And THIS, is the issue with state education and the general mentality in Britain. Some kids are academically gifted, others are not and will go on to be successful in other types of jobs and pursuits. The current state system always caters for the lowest common denominator, so if you are academically bright but not well off your education suffers as the teacher is feeling with disruption and slower students.

That's why parents opt for private school / grammar school.

People also look at Britain in such an insular way. The countries that our kids need to compete with globally like China, U.S. do not have similar attitudes and push the kids at the top academically to excel.

I know that’s not true here. London excellent school.

Maybe there’s more scrutiny here. Sounds extremely dodgy.

Sittinginthesand, you seem woefully ignorant about the charitable activities of village churches, many of which would be unknown to outsiders. We do not boast or advertise our charitable deeds.
My own tiny village church paid to rebuild three houses destroyed in the Nepal earthquake, supports a group of poor subsistence farmers in Malawi to send their kids to high school, collects for the local food bank, supports Christian Aid, funds a missionary who is a consultant obstetrician for poor rural women in Pakistan, runs a drop in cafe for local pensioners, etc etc.
I doubt any of the local atheists know about any of it. But at least they aren’t sneering at us on online.

@MarshaBradyo So another family I know near here - again a large rented house (don't have another house in grandparents' name at least) but she drives one of those big mummy Volvo's to school every day. I think other parents must be a bit cross about that too? Foreign holidays, skiing, pony club. On paper they must have passed though -this is a different school to the first one I mentioned.

Thinking about it they do home visits usually here

That is one way to ensure your friends wouldn’t get through unless they purposely live in a smaller house to get the fees.

This would be a barrier to fraud for schools that do it though.

Most people who can choose to live in comfort. Also own a property rather than rent. I guess I don’t know anyone who would commit fraud on that level for fees.

@MarshaBradyo I think you would be surprised at the number of people who have a gentle fiddle of their finances and put the honest ones in to disrepute. And it is usually the people whose children would flourish in the state sector anyway as they are well supported.

I actually think it would be a fantastic story for The Times who have done some really interesting education stories recently..maybe I should contact them...an expose of those who lie for fees!!!

The schools you mention sound very lax tbh

Maybe other stuff like lowering tax legally yes but actually hiding the stuff you mention I really don’t know anyone. Maybe it’s the hoops the school have in place too as so in demand and probably scrutinised.

Yes I said earlier to someone who said their school didn’t ask for any financial information at all but got a bursary it would be scandalous enough to be interesting to media

[quote prh47bridge]**@Coronateachingagain* - Well yes but if the charity decides they are unavailable or decides to unwind after the changes, then the trustees could decide to "hand it over" to one of these groups. I am should the are already going around trying to convince the trustees they could do this.*

No, they couldn't. If a charity closes it must either use its remaining assets for its charitable purposes or give those assets to another charity with similar purposes. The trustees could sell the physical assets (land, buildings, etc.) to a business, but they must do so at the full market price. The money must not, under any circumstances, make its way back to the business that buys the assets.[/quote]
I did not mean the charity would sell at below market price. More that this situation would open the market for the private equity groups, to get local market share which before was less possible to get. They will pay, but then they will pay themselves too by consolidating and maximising profit (but not necessarily the school offer)

@Iggly

Well I’m struggling to see how private schools even have the cheek to call themselves charities.

Historically a lot of private schools were set up by local philanthropists but you wouldn’t know it (eg Alleyns for example). But they are so far removed from charities now, it’s a joke.

I would rather charity status taken away but it’s a mistake to link it to increased funding for state schools especially as that’s not really how the tax system normally works. Just increase funding to state schools and don’t make it an attack on private.

Yup

A lot of the private schools will be more than happy to ditch the charitable status - means they can also ditch all the sharing of facilities and outreach stuff they have to do in order to justify it.

A bigger issue is going to be the VAT...

All those private schools will now be able to reclaim all the VAT they have paid over the last 3-8 years. That's going to be one massive bill for the government to have to fund.

They really haven't thought this through very well.

@FreeBritnee

It’s a really easy policy for labour to come up with as it will target with near certainty Tory voters and ensure it pisses off pretty much no Labour voters. A Tory tax if you will. What’s not to like?

Life is not that simple. If you remove educational establishments from charity rules then doesn't that also apply to Universities? I understand that Labour voters' DC go to Universities, too, so it will hike their costs as much as anyone.

If we were starting today, would anyone argue that schools which allowed those who can pay for private education deserved a subsidy from taxation?

I really don't think so.

There needs to be some sensible thinking around how to get from here to there.

Would love to hear from anyone who thinks private education really does deserve tax subsidies.

@FinallyHere

If we were starting today, would anyone argue that schools which allowed those who can pay for private education deserved a subsidy from taxation?

I really don't think so.

There needs to be some sensible thinking around how to get from here to there.

Would love to hear from anyone who thinks private education really does deserve tax subsidies.

But people who use it pay tax for the state place they don’t use

So it’s a subsidy that works that way too.

And charitable brings rules around not for profit, reinvestment, outreach and importantly bursaries

I find it very flimsy that Starmer waves this away

A bit like when he said ‘nurseries should probably close’ with no thought to real impact on people’s (mostly women) lives

Financially it’s very weak and people are promised far more than it will deliver. It is likely to worsen situation in state.

It is likely to worsen situation in state.

Everything will depend on the implementation, which is, of course, up to the government.

There is nothing inherently wrong state provision of schools. It is all about how they are funded and organised.

There are many countries with decent state schools, where the appetite for private provision of schooling is low.

That seems like a great idea to me. Along with decent state provision for healthcare.

Not the current approach, starving these sectors of resources so that people who can afford to, buy their way out, a few stellar stars get charitable help and the rest are left to get on with their educationally improvised lives.

That is no way to run a country.

@FinallyHere

It is likely to worsen situation in state.

Everything will depend on the implementation, which is, of course, up to the government.

There is nothing inherently wrong state provision of schools. It is all about how they are funded and organised.

There are many countries with decent state schools, where the appetite for private provision of schooling is low.

That seems like a great idea to me. Along with decent state provision for healthcare.

Not the current approach, starving these sectors of resources so that people who can afford to, buy their way out, a few stellar stars get charitable help and the rest are left to get on with their educationally improvised lives.

That is no way to run a country.

I’m not against making state more attractive,

Just not this way which will cost more as people leave the private sector and close doors between them.

I preferred the education rally cry that last won a landslide.

Just not punitive which this is - more positive and about opportunity

[quote Placido]@MarshaBradyo
We have friends with a house in grandparents name, who rent a house and put all their expenses through their catering business. They have two children on 100% boarding bursaries.
They also have exotic and glamorous holidays, throw big parties, buy tons of clothes, go to endless pop concerts (when we could do such things anyway!)
They drive crap cars though as these are visible.
Not the norm, but they exist - we all know some.[/quote]
That's the fault of HMRC who should be dealing with that kind of illegal tax evasion.