Secondary Private vs grammar

[frozenberry]

I am a parent who is willing to sacrifice a lot to put my dc through private school however I'm also trying to work out if it's worth it.

I'm thinking that if I save all the money in fees that's a hefty amount of money at the end. Regardless of fees I plan to continue paying for university etc anyway so that won't come into it.

I am looking at the beautiful grounds and facilities at some of the private schools and can see they are amazing however my dc is at a prep now and they work so hard they barely get time for the extra activities anyway. I'm sat here trying to work out what activities to drop as the official exam years approach and I'd rather dc was prepping. I assume this happens in exam years in secondary too. When I meet dc from the grammar school vs the local independents the private school dc always have more confidence about them but I can't decide if it's their families or schools that turn them out like this. I think confidence is such an important thing to have in life.

I know going on a feel and fees aside private would win hands down so it is a financial decision but also more a 'value for money' one. Will my dc ever get that much more. I am looking at selective independents and grammar schools. Our school has advised us dc is very bright and capable so we are heading in that direction.
If any one can add anything to my pros and cons list I'd be rather grateful as I'm struggling to make a decision on which schools to apply for.

My dd went to a selective independent on a bursary; her brother went to a grammar (he's in year 10). Dd has now moved across to a different grammar for sixth form.

Pros of independent over ds' grammar were more time off curriculum (eg robotics day, Roman day etc) and more trips. Extra curriculars were good too and dd went to lots of different clubs, which also meant her years 7-9 were more varied and fun than ds'.
Having said that, she didn't find anything she actually stuck with! And ended up doing singing lessons outside of school anyway, as she wanted a more rock/pop approach and school singing lessons were very classical. So really- it's just a case of having a bit more fun and variety at school rather than anything life changing.

The time off curriculum/more variety benefit only really applied for years 7 to 9; after that years 10 and 11 were totally GCSE focused and she might as well have been at the grammar (one of the reasons for moving for sixth form too as that would have been the same).

Another pro was more individual attention - staff were more readily available at lunchtimes for drop in sessions and they were paired up with sixth form mentors for some subjects. However, my dd is very independent and not one to ever ask for help, so she really didn't benefit from this much! Well maybe she did in Maths, as she rather liked the male teacher...!

Her year group at the independent school was 90 (all girls) whereas it's 200 (mixed) at grammar. She felt 90 was nice and cosy, she knew everyone and felt very comfortable. Having said that though, ds knows everyone in his year (150) and hasn't had any social issues.

In terms of confidence - dd has no more confidence than any of her peers at grammar now! I suspect maybe it's a parenting thing?

Overall, I'm not sure I'd feel it was worth it for £13k a year, but for what we paid I have no quibbles.

On the downside, we found the independent much more pressured in years 10 and 11 - maybe that was partly because it was all girls though. The pressure came from her peers rather than the teachers.

She prefers being in a more 'normal' environment at grammar, as she felt the independent school was a bit of a 'bubble' and girls didn't really know how privileged they were.

@crazycrofter your reply is exactly what I needed to read thank you.

I was thinking to do what you have done and stick out 5 years of fees and move dc over to grammar for sixth form but I'm wondering how dc will could leaving the friends they've made in years 7-11, was it your dd decision to move?
A lot of mums at our prep do this with their older dc because of the university's admissions changing against private schools as well.

The other consideration is my friend whose son is in an independent school in year 8 feels her fees have been totally wasted as covid has put paid to all the trips! But hopefully it will be over soon! I think in reality only our fees for years 7-9 were really worth it- but you can’t really move for years 10 and 11,

Do bear in mind that some grammars can be even harder to get into at sixth form! Dd wanted to move to a co-Ed environment and one that was socially more ‘normal’, so that’s why she moved. She’s kept her old friends but made a huge group of new ones (20 plus in the group now) who she socialises with every weekend so it’s worked out well.

I wouldn’t make the move for Uni admissions reasons. Contextual offers are based either on home address or on whether your school is bottom 40% so grammar school is just the same as independent really.

If Dr already very bright and ok to learn, what else do you want out of her eduction?
Ie in exam factory or somewhere more neutering? Better pastoral care?

Take the finances out of the equation and visit the schools. Which one feels right ? Don’t go by how nicely the lawn is cut, but by what the school has to offer. If he is sporty, do they have good sport facilities, for example. What’s the pastoral care? What’s the added value? Just because you pay for a school, doesn’t mean it’s any good.

@Standrewsschool

Take the finances out of the equation and visit the schools. Which one feels right ? Don’t go by how nicely the lawn is cut, but by what the school has to offer. If he is sporty, do they have good sport facilities, for example. What’s the pastoral care? What’s the added value? Just because you pay for a school, doesn’t mean it’s any good.

I don't think you can take the finances out of the question unless you're very wealthy.

Is the education £100k+ better than they could get at the grammar school? How else could you spend that money in supporting your child through uni/getting onto the housing ladder etc.

Those absolutely are the questions you should be asking.

In short - is it good value for money?

I think you have to assume that absolutely not - private schools are in no way value for money. Dd probably got a couple of grades higher than she would have done at our non selective state. However she loved it there, did so many different things choir debating drama dance fencing all kinds of sports and has a bunch of lovely close friends, she's happy and confident, so it definitely hasn't been a waste of money, good value if you are thinking in terms of grades (she should get A star A star A) - hmm maybe not she'd probably have got AAB at state maybe but impossible to say

Have you looked at the GCSE / A-level subjects?
Which mod langs, or classics (Latin & Greek), GCSE electronics etc…

Does one school offer courses / exam boards the other doesn’t? IGCSE v A-level v Eng/EBacc v Btechs etc..?

Have you looked at grades and onwards destinations/courses?

Types of sport / music / drama offered?

Would a longer school day suit your work rota?
Weekly boarding / flexi / day?

Lots to think about.

[quote frozenberry]@crazycrofter your reply is exactly what I needed to read thank you.

I was thinking to do what you have done and stick out 5 years of fees and move dc over to grammar for sixth form but I'm wondering how dc will could leaving the friends they've made in years 7-11, was it your dd decision to move?
A lot of mums at our prep do this with their older dc because of the university's admissions changing against private schools as well. [/quote]
I don't think that private for GCSEs then state for A levels is going to pull the wool over the eyes of any university admissions tutor.

I'm not convinced that 'changing against private schools' is quite the right view on it either. I think a more accurate take would be 'starting to recognise that students from some state schools will have had educational disadvantages compared with those from independents, grammars and the best comps, so mitigating for that slightly in contextual offers'.

I doubt most uni admissions software /tutors apart from oxb make any distinction at all apart from contextual offers.

Contextual offers based on place where GCSE's were taken. They aren't daft!

@Hoopa

Contextual offers based on place where GCSE's were taken. They aren't daft!

Yes of course because you wont have taken A levels by the time they've made the contextual offer!

Also not all comprehensives get contextual offers. Bristol have a good list.

Depends on the specific schools really. We had this dilemma and chose Private for the following reasons
Proximity
Facilities
Class sizes
Sibling unlikely to get a Grammar place

Value for money wasn’t important for us and neither are exam results to be honest. It’s more about being happy at school and we decided that the Private school gave the best chance of that.

Re contextual offers, we've found dd is eligible for some, due to her address, despite having done her GCSEs at an independent school. But if school type is the criteria used, I assume it must be the GCSE school, as her friend got one from Bristol and her secondary school was definitely in the bottom 40% but the college she did her A Levels at wasn't.

I have two perspectives on this, as I have chosen private over grammar for my kids, and I also have a DH who has taught in both sectors (and also in comprehensive). We agonised over the grammar-private decision for the kids and went for private in the end. The first thing to say is that not all grammars are the same and not all privates are the same - but the benefits that we see in the case of our local schools are broadly as follows.

Smaller class sizes (not really small, but enough to get more individual attention). Subject choice, particularly in languages. Teaching - not better teachers necessarily, but more consistency, very small amount of lesson cover, teachers have lighter timetables with more dedicated time for additional responsibilities, better resources, better support, and there is a general culture that they will offer a lot in terms of clubs, subject clinics, individual support etc. Less focus on frequent assessment, more freedom in the curriculum. 'Enrichment' - loads of drama, sport, music built into the curriculum, plus masses of extra-curricular opportunities - plus, crucially, an expectation that all the students will get involved in lots of additional activities, so everyone does. Very inclusive sports provision (not just teams for the first XI). Flexibility in terms of a longer day, plus always having somewhere to hang around to do homework etc if necessary, meals on tap if required. A lovely environment (beautiful grounds, open space, lovely food etc). Almost non-existent behaviour problems.

Depressing as it kind of is, DH would say that he is a better teacher in private than in state - because he has the time, resources and support to be so.

Whether all of that is worth the money is a whole other question. We're not paying full fees - and we definitely think the advantages are worth what we pay. If we were loaded and paying full fees then we also probably would. But if we were in a situation where the fees would be a major struggle, then I think we would probably have decided that the grammar would be absolutely fine (and meant it).

If I had a dc that would pass 11+ without lots of tutoring/stress/pushing them and they were a robust relatively independent child then grammar will work out well for the vast majority.

If not in that category, I.e. 11+ a bit dodgy/sensitive/anxious/needs more nuturing or dislikes everything being quite pressurised then not grammar, but not a very selective private school either. A smaller less selective more nurturing one.

We don’t live in grammar area and are going private with DS1 as he has ASD/dyslexia which his current prep are brilliant and supportive around whereas state could,not be as he wasn’t bad enough/teachers stressed etc. Will go to a smaller more nuturing senior with option of weekly boarding as schedule/routine is v important to ds and he hates travelling to and from school. Ds2 is ‘normal’ and quite bright, Jury out for him at present

OP, one thing that stands out to me is that your son is currently having to prep so hard that he's not able to make any use of the extra-curricular benefits. This absolutely shouldn't be the case, and wasn't the case for any of mine when they were at prep school, including Common Entrance years.

It wasn't the case when they moved on, either. A bright and capable child who is well taught should be doing lots of other things at school, too - and if the school is only focussing on exams, there's something a bit odd going on.

And sorry - was assuming you were talking about a son, as I was thinking that 'prep' meant 'CE prep'. My mistake!

It really totally depends where you live and which the schools are - if you are comparing a GDST to a girls grammar then there wont usually be THAT much in it unless your child is unusually sporty, good at drama, musical etc etc.

If you are comparing a grammar to a really big all singing all dancing public school then yes there's going to be big differences. if you can afford 25k a year upwards though would you really be looking at grammars as well?

Not all grammars are equal and neither are all independent schools. You need to compare individual schools against each other but most importantly your gut reaction as to which one feels right.

My DD passed the Bucks grammar 11+ with no formal tutoring and got several independent school offers, including a scholarship at one of them. In the end it came down to choosing between the grammar and a very expensive independent (weekly boarder). We got the same “feel” from both and we gave her the final choice. It was only as we neared offer day that we knew we had the money to go private and up until that point I knew that there was NO WAY the independent would give her £30k a year of extra stuff above and beyond the grammar and it wasn’t worth busting a gut to send her there. When the finances were taken off the table, the independent just felt like it had the edge - it has a full on programme for her first sport as opposed to one lunchtime club, drama was better, more extra curricular opportunities, smaller class sizes etc. But I would have chosen the grammar over every other independent offer she got though.

@Zodlebud that is our choice atm. Weekly boarding or grammar in Bucks.
For us it means me going back to work to pay for the fees if it's weekly boarding . I don't really want to do that. Happy to be judged but I like being a sahm.

I will see how dc likes each schools as we visit them as well. It's hard. I don't want to get it wrong for dc as it's so important to be happy at school and a lot of the extras seem to disappear in secondary grammars but at the same time they may disappear anyway in the independent schools as the exam years kick in.

@frozenberry If extra curriculars disappear at either prep or secondary as exam time approaches then I would worry about the focus of the school being all about results.

We chose our school BECAUSE they put as much emphasis on what goes on outside the classroom as in it. All but one of the academic scholars turned down places at Habs, NLCS or St Albans High to go there because they wanted more balance. At least 10 girls turned down grammar places to go there. Yet it’s not a particularly selective school and it caters exceptionally well for children with mild learning disabilities (dyslexia, dyscalcula etc). Sometimes the very brightest thrive on being a big fish in a small pond. What I am saying is don’t judge a school simply on results as that’s usually more of a reflection of intake than purely the school.

Also, many schools have school bus routes that cover a huge radius. Take Berkhamsted, for example, which covers a huge swathe of Bucks. Academics are excellent and scholarships not given out easily. You might have more options than grammar or very expensive weekly boarding.

@Zodlebud this is a bit late, but if you were willing, could you share via PM the school your ds attends? I have a ds that needs somewhere similar, but a colleague (based on bucks/oxon border) has a dyslexic dd that it might suit. No worries if not though.

There is something very wrong with any school where the kids stop doing all of the extracurricular stuff in exam years, IMO. They need that balance. It's perfectly possible to get a string of 9s in GCSEs and have a busy life with lots of enriching activities outside of school. Even for kids who go to a bog standard state comp.

Have PMd you @ChocolateHoneycomb