Private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers II

[MurielSpriggs]

The story behind this full thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/4166618-Are-top-private-schools-getting-fewer-oxbridge-offers
plus a quote from a poster here, have made it into a lengthy article in today's FT.

(Of course, I read the FT by accident. Clearly I live in a static caravan, my kids are educated by the local feral cats, and I would never consider paying to try to improve their chances at fancy-schmancy so-called universities ).

www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

(Just to add to the unjust exclusivity, FT is behind a paywall.)

How Britain’s private schools lost their grip on Oxbridge
As state-school admissions rise at elite universities, some parents who shelled out for private education regret it

<span class="italic">“Five years ago, my son would have got a place at Oxford. But now the bar has shifted and he didn’t,” says my friend, a City of London executive who has put several children through elite private schools in Britain. “I think he got short-changed.”</span>

I’ve been hearing this more and more from fellow parents with kids at top day and boarding schools in recent years. Some of it sounds like whining: most of us like to think the best of our progeny. But my friend has a point. After years of hand-wringing about unequal access to elite higher education, admissions standards are finally shifting.

A decade ago, parents who handed over tens of thousands of pounds a year for the likes of Eton College, St Paul’s School or King’s College School in Wimbledon could comfortably assume their kids had a very good chance of attending Oxford or Cambridge, two of the best universities in the world. A 2018 Sutton Trust study showed that just eight institutions, six of them private, accounted for more Oxbridge places than 2,900 other UK secondary schools combined. When the headmaster of Westminster School boasted at an open evening that half the sixth form went on to Oxbridge, approving murmurs filled the wood-panelled hall. (I was there.) ...

@Fudgeball123
in 10 yrs time half of the current private schools will be state run.
there is an exodus of good teachers from private to state due to the teachers pension crisis. They won’t find the staff and they won’t have enough pupils.
State schools will improve.

@Fudgeball123
i should have said the bad state schools. There are some amazing ones that put fee paying schools to shame, but all state schools need to be this good.

chocolata some private schools are closing / merging but they are sold off for housing developments. There's no romantic idea of them becoming state schools. This idea that pushing everyone into the state sector will improve the state sector.. I don't see how it will work. How does adding 7% of kids suddenly improve everything. I would anticipate overcrowding as step 1. There won't be any more funding. Those in private education are already paying tax. It won't make any difference to HMRC?

And all those who can afford it get in tutors and those with degree level backgrounds spend their evenings and weekends supporting their kids in various enhancement activities.

Which is more important. Education or the level playing field.

We absolutely wanted to our children to have a good education. DH went to a bog standard comp in the early days when there was no streaming and he was one of only two in his class to get to University. He got a scholarship to Oxford, but regrets the lack of secondary education. He only had a smattering of language, was not introduced to much literature and knows virtually no science, and seemingly no exposure to art or music. It was not OK to be clever, so he had to learn to be invisible. Private schools may give confidence, but poor state schools can take it away.

We paid for our DC to have the education he would have loved to have. We did not mind paying twice. Essentially our not taking up a state place has meant that there is more money to educate others.

Both our DC aspire towards public sector jobs. Their education will allow them to make a positive contribution to society.

Both our DC aspire towards public sector jobs. Their education will allow them to make a positive contribution to society.

Slightly weird thing to say - a state education also "allows" people to make a positive contribution to society.

Don't be so silly. That was not my whole post. And I did not say that state schools did not allow people to contribute to society.

I had quoted an earlier post which seemed to seemed to suggest that ensuring equality of education was more important than the total level of educaiton provided. Closing private schools would presumably reduce the resources private educated kids received, but would also reduce the resources per child available to state schools. More education is better for everyone and for society.

(There is a recurring MN theme that private schools only produce money grubbing thickos with good grades.)

I agree with needmoresleep. Education should be the gateway to social mobility not a lowest common denominator.
Those who have money will pay for tutoring etc whether that's private schooling or state schooling..

chocolata You don't seem to be able to grasp the outcome of so many hundreds of thousands of children joining the state system. The private schools around here that failed are now luxury flats and a boutique hotel. They are certainly not state schools! The teachers did not rush into state, but simply found other job in the private school sector.

The funding in education will not increase due to inflated demand, there will just be overcrowded classes and less resources for children that will be very thinly spread. All children will suffer as a result. Teachers will be over stretched with huge classes to cover, as will pastoral and other areas and the education attainment is likely to plummet as a result. Lowering the chances and opportunities across the board.

Which will be okay because Oxbridge and others will by then be simply selecting the global children that have continued to filter in without discrimination and have world class education from international schools and the grades and outlook required, as the British children will struggle in the backdrop of such overcrowding to achieve the grades needed.

swayingpalmtrees makes a good point... One of the schools with the highest no. Oxbridge places is in Singapore? I'm guessing the Singaporeans are not squeamish about private v state, tutoring etc and Oxford and Cambridge will claim they need the money..

@Swayingpalmtrees
It is happening already. Teachers migrating towards better pensions - quite rightly.
mans it won’t be overnight. Even labour aren’t going to declare all schools shut the next day.
Inflation and pensions are starting the decline and then incentives to swop to state run leadership will slowly cement it.

fudge I think people mistakenly think it is between state and private and thats it, and they forget about the huge swathes of international students that do not have limits as to how and where they learn, what they can bring in terms of value added (which is absolutely huge by the way - several languages, musical ability etc etc) and are not held back by anything! Least of all the country and society they are from.

I wish all state schools were fantastic, and I would vote for a government that could promise to resource education properly and level the playing ground with raising standards, whilst we are squabbling about tea parties in the lockdown, brexit and basic instinct moments the real issues in this country are being entirely overlooked.

chocolata You have a small myopic view of education and life and I would suggest you broaden your world view. It is far more complex that pensions and inflation, Also to note: you do not spell swop like that, it is swap. So clearly English and spelling is not your forte and encases the issue we are discussing perfectly.

Chocolata

I should let you into a bit of a secret. Some of the best teachers in the private sector have failed in the state sector or would struggle if they switched. Indeed not all teachers in the private sector are qualified. One private schools have dealt with shortages in key subjects like maths and science has been to offer direct routes in.

It is not just about pensions. Smaller classes, selected pupils and more effective sanctions for bad behaviour mean teaching is easier. If you have a bright engaged cohort it can be more a case of showing them the way than drilling syllabus into them. With the added benefit that these pupils arrive at University used to being proactive in their learning.

Sorry "One way private schools..."

With the added benefit that these pupils arrive at University used to being proactive in their learning.

I would have thought the opposite - children in state schools who may be dealing with unreliable staffing, larger classes and greater disruption generally will be much more likely to be proactive and self-motivated, they have to be if they're going to do well. It's one of the reasons suggested for state school students out-performing private school students at university.

stoneysongs or are they demoralised and demotivated?

Are who demoralised and demotivated?

Many pupils from the private sector arrive at University having been spoon fed all the way through their education. This can be a problem for some when they need to be more resourceful and self-directed at university, particularly for some humanities and social sciences subjects

Many pupils from the private sector arrive at University having been spoon fed all the way through their education. This can be a problem for some when they need to be more resourceful and self-directed at university, particularly for some humanities and social sciences subjects

stoneysongs
'With the added benefit that these pupils arrive at University used to being proactive in their learning.

I would have thought the opposite - children in state schools who may be dealing with unreliable staffing, larger classes and greater disruption generally will be much more likely to be proactive and self-motivated, they have to be if they're going to do well. It's one of the reasons suggested for state school students out-performing private school students at university.'

Full credit to those who can cope with 14 years of poor / mediocre education and come out of it motivated rather than demotivated and demoralised. A friend of mine was on FSMs and was bullied relentlessly and said how sh!t his school was. He was the first person to make it to university in his family but he was more of a survivor than a thriver.. My friend's son will be sprinting out at age 16 having been bullied for the last 3 years on a daily basis.

Not all state schools are poor, some are great. Some independent schools are rubbish and some are fab. Some private school students are smart (believe it or not).

The way some people speak of state schools and state school children on here is staggering. According to some of these 'views', it's a miracle any kids manage to survive into adulthood let alone remain alive and get into Oxbridge.

sorry @Swayingpalmtrees I am dyslexic and my private school never picked up on it.

There is a problem with applications from parts of the UK to Oxbridge - simply, more children from the SE apply and many from the North and North-east who might have applied have either been historically put off, or feel that other top tier Universities like Durham or Edinburgh suit them better. I know Oxford Colleges are particularly outreaching to those parts of the UK where applications are low.
And it does need repeating - the proportions of privately educated dc achieving Oxbridge are still higher than state applicants achieving admission.

Many pupils from the private sector arrive at University having been spoon fed all the way through their education

That is a lazy assumption to make, and a very boring one. Not every child in the private sector have silver spoons! Many are the children of nurses and doctors working in the NHS and certainly are not spoon fed.

sorry @Swayingpalmtrees I am dyslexic and my private school never picked up on it Ah of course you are a disgruntled and jaded pupil from a failing private school. It makes sense now.

Every private school we have ever applied to and been accepted for has without exception included extensive tests and assessments precisely to pick up on any learning needs.
The fact that your 'private school' seemed to miss something so obvious chocolata is deeply worrying. Is it also one of the (only) schools you claim to be sold off to the state sector?

The imaginary and rather optimistic idea that the private schools will simply gift the state sector their schools, facilities and land as a gesture of goodwill in the land of lala or are you socialist and have dreams of capturing the schools China style so that you are able to force your dc into said schools?