Private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers II

[MurielSpriggs]

The story behind this full thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/4166618-Are-top-private-schools-getting-fewer-oxbridge-offers
plus a quote from a poster here, have made it into a lengthy article in today's FT.

(Of course, I read the FT by accident. Clearly I live in a static caravan, my kids are educated by the local feral cats, and I would never consider paying to try to improve their chances at fancy-schmancy so-called universities ).

www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

(Just to add to the unjust exclusivity, FT is behind a paywall.)

How Britain’s private schools lost their grip on Oxbridge
As state-school admissions rise at elite universities, some parents who shelled out for private education regret it

<span class="italic">“Five years ago, my son would have got a place at Oxford. But now the bar has shifted and he didn’t,” says my friend, a City of London executive who has put several children through elite private schools in Britain. “I think he got short-changed.”</span>

I’ve been hearing this more and more from fellow parents with kids at top day and boarding schools in recent years. Some of it sounds like whining: most of us like to think the best of our progeny. But my friend has a point. After years of hand-wringing about unequal access to elite higher education, admissions standards are finally shifting.

A decade ago, parents who handed over tens of thousands of pounds a year for the likes of Eton College, St Paul’s School or King’s College School in Wimbledon could comfortably assume their kids had a very good chance of attending Oxford or Cambridge, two of the best universities in the world. A 2018 Sutton Trust study showed that just eight institutions, six of them private, accounted for more Oxbridge places than 2,900 other UK secondary schools combined. When the headmaster of Westminster School boasted at an open evening that half the sixth form went on to Oxbridge, approving murmurs filled the wood-panelled hall. (I was there.) ...

All children will suffer if the private school sector ends.

@Swayingpalmtrees
with a proper contextual system the sector won’t need to be abolished. The playing field will be more level and going to a private school will be a nice experience still but those children will just need to score higher marks in exams than those who have had a different experience of school which seems very fair.

@Swayingpalmtrees - from the Westminster website 2021 (university entrants):
Oxford45
Cambridge30
UCL26
Imperial22
Durham12
Other UK44
EU2
US19
75 out of 200 to Oxbridge! (37.5%) Hardly disadvantaged… those are some of the most academic kids in independent schools

Queen Elizabeth School Barnet, and these kids will be just as clever as a pool:
“University destinations: A new School record of 40 Oxbridge places were secured in 2020. Together with two other schools, QE had the joint-highest number of pupils in the world going to Cambridge University in 2016; of the three, we had the highest success rate in securing offers, with 52% of applicants offered places. Some 25-35 QE leavers gain Oxbridge places annually. Research by the Sutton Trust, the social mobility foundation, named Queen Elizabeth’s as the top state school for admission to Russell Group universities – a status confirmed by Department for Education figures released in 2019 looking at leavers’ destinations over the previous three years.”
I think it will now be about 40/155 - so 25%

Obviously these are crude statistics (and there is no indication of courses taken at Oxbridge) but both schools attract some of the brightest in the country. Going to Westminster and paying the huge fees still confers some advantage.

I think it is important that Oxford and Cambridge attract more state school students so that those institutions feel more normal to state school students as it can be an alienating experience otherwise. It is actually good for the public school kids too to come out of their bubbles.

Don't say I didn't warn you. People will not continue to pay for their children to be disadvantaged. No one is saying that allowances should be reduced for state school children on free school meals etc, of course they should remain, but to actively discriminate against public school children which is happening now will end in collapse of the state school system. Parents will just switch over and save the money and send their very bright children to state schools so they are not discriminated against and the classes will be hitting fifty pupils in no time at all. It is going too far the other way.

People do not pay for a 'nice' experience, the can send their children to village schools for that. They pay for first class education and results that will see the children into solid universities. You clearly don't understand why parents would choose a private education if you think it is for a 'nice experience'

Plucking one example that had the most entrants into Oxbridge is really not helping abuilding

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9256577/Eton-College-loses-HALF-Oxbridge-offers-universities-try-boost-intake-state-schools.html

If that isn't right, what do you think should happen in that situation? If the private school kid has the same level of attainment and merit as the state school kid, despite all the extras they've had the privilege to access, then they're either less innately talented or less hardworking, so of course the place should go to the state school kid. And yes, of course there are individual circumstances that mean this isn't true every time but everyone thinks they're the special case and by definition, most aren't.

It should be done fairly house a good mix of state and public school students, but if you are going to strip out private schools, which seems to be happening now in some universities you can most definitely expect to see parents living the private sector in droves and putting huge strain on the state sector.
With the cost living crisis, influx of refugees from Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan and the kind of discrimination we are now seeing in Universities you could soon see state schools totally overwhelmed.

That is not to say private school children should have any kind of advantage whatsoever. The allowances where applicable should continue in the state school applications, but there needs to be a middle road. If private school students feel they are slaving away for nothing because of where they go to school is being used time and again against them you will see a very real consequence to that. It is very straight forward. No parent is going to shell out upwards of 250,000gbp to disadvantage their child.

** leaving

They are not stripping out private schools. They are simply redressing the balance somewhat and trying to establish a fairer system of place allocation. Fairness just feels like it is unfair when unfairness has been the norm for so long. All they are doing is looking at the context in which grades have been achieved i.e. if someone gets top grades from a deprived school with much inferior teaching, that counts more than they have been achieved in small classes with excellent teaching. It is not difficult to see that the former is the greater achievement. That's not to say that DC from in more privileged context can't make themselves stand out in the same way but they have to do it with extra achievements such as essay competitions, olympiads etc., which should be accessible to them.

I disagree, in my experience and looking at the stats students are being discriminated against for going to top public schools red People have been talking about it for months, many reconsidering their decisions around fee paying.

@Swayingpalmtrees
There was discrimination in their favour when they went to a school that could give them more time and smaller classes.
This just rebalances it so the playing field is slightly more equal.
You really sound very silly talking about discrimination of private school children.

@Swayingpalmtrees could you elaborate on the experience that you are referring to? Also, which stats are you talking about? If you are looking at numbers going down over the past few years, that's about redressing the balance from the unfair starting position, rather than discrimination.

If this trend that it is a disadvantage for most talented and worthy children from private schools to gain a place at Oxbridge etc, simply because they go to a private schools continues

It is not a disadvantage to go to private school. Private school students still have enormous educational privilege and are still over represented at Oxbridge.

Who on earth is going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to be disadvantaged in this way?

Presumably all the parents on here who swear blind that access to Oxbridge is nothing to do with their reasons for going private.

It is a form of discrimination to refuse any application simply because the children go to a high flying school.

This does not happen. They take into account the context of each child's achievements and then use that and all the other indicators (A level predictions / entrance tests / PS / interview performance) to pick the people they want the most.

There are real consequences to losing the brightest students to other institutions in the world simply to meet quotas.

Oxbridge are not losing the brightest students, they are still picking the students they think are the brightest and best suited, it's just that more of them go to state school, because more state school students are applying and shock horror, lots of them are brighter than private school students. Unbelievable I know, but not all poor people are thick.

Basically, if a child doesn't get in, it's because they thought someone else was better and wanted them more.

Or they just wanted to meet a quota stoney

The stats for years massively advantaged private and public schools - a relatively small percentage of the population but massively over represented at Oxbridge. Are you really arguing that that was perfectly fine and as it should be and should continue?!

You really think that Oxbridge are deliberately turning away the best people and giving places to people who they think are not as good? Even when privately educated students are still over represented?

Can you not see that contextualising people's circumstances means that they are more likely to find out who the brightest are? Not forgetting that everyone still has to meet the offer, and perform well on entrance tests and at interview?

You seem to be complaining that even though private school students have an advantage when it comes to Oxbridge admissions, it's not quite as significant as it used to be. You seem to be arguing for going back to how things used to be, aka discriminating against very bright state school students in favour of less bright private school students. Not a good look imo.

@Swayingpalmtrees

You really think that Oxbridge are deliberately turning away the best people and giving places to people who they think are not as good? Even when privately educated students are still over represented?

Can you not see that contextualising people's circumstances means that they are more likely to find out who the brightest are? Not forgetting that everyone still has to meet the offer, and perform well on entrance tests and at interview?

You seem to be complaining that even though private school students have an advantage when it comes to Oxbridge admissions, it's not quite as significant as it used to be. You seem to be arguing for going back to how things used to be, aka discriminating against very bright state school students in favour of less bright private school students. Not a good look imo.

Ooh sorry posted twice

@Swayingpalmtrees here are some stats, for last year but it gives the picture. www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files
Looks like the private sector is still healthily represented, no?

stoneysongs I would agree that a small number of schools have be disproportionately over represented at oxbridge colleges in the past and this must change.
However;

1. not all private school children are there to get into Oxbridge
2. not all state school children are poor. Where we live the state schools are dire and there is no grammar school under 50 miles. Our friends in London have an outstanding school 180m from their house. And guess what? All the houses are worth over £1.2MM in the catchment area, there is no social housing... there are no poor children.. So it doesn't feel like a hit back for state v private. It feels like a triumph for those with sufficient money to buy within the good catchment areas and for those who can afford the years of tutoring to get into grammar school. A London friend of ours is paying over £100 per hour for primary school tutoring.. its just mental. And for what its worth I wouldn't encourage my kids to go to Oxbridge - 50% of the Oxbridge graduates I have met have been a bit 'odd' one way or another.. I've heard its no longer all jolly japes and its all hard work and stress.

What is extremely striking about the stats you sent over red is the huge huge number of children both state and independent that take over the entire top of the list is one thing: They are nearly all London based, a few stray out to the south east, but it is enormously London centric and does not look balanced at all to me. Not in the least. It is a huge problem, if you are only recruiting your students from one small corner of the country...all with the same mindset etc.....I am shocked, I can't believe this has been allowed to continue.

Also the stats are a year out of date. The latest influx was very very state heavy. Please attach up to date links that reflect what is happening now.

This is more up to date:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/state-sixth-form-gets-record-number-of-oxbridge-offers-9sn9887n6

www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

@Fudgeball123
Your friends’ children won’t get contextual offers based on their postcode then will they! Have a read up about how the offers are given.

And for what its worth I wouldn't encourage my kids to go to Oxbridge.. I've heard its no longer all jolly japes and its all hard work and stress.

I agree, horses for courses, it wouldn't suit my DC either, I don't think.