Private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers II

[MurielSpriggs]

The story behind this full thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/4166618-Are-top-private-schools-getting-fewer-oxbridge-offers
plus a quote from a poster here, have made it into a lengthy article in today's FT.

(Of course, I read the FT by accident. Clearly I live in a static caravan, my kids are educated by the local feral cats, and I would never consider paying to try to improve their chances at fancy-schmancy so-called universities ).

www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

(Just to add to the unjust exclusivity, FT is behind a paywall.)

How Britain’s private schools lost their grip on Oxbridge
As state-school admissions rise at elite universities, some parents who shelled out for private education regret it

<span class="italic">“Five years ago, my son would have got a place at Oxford. But now the bar has shifted and he didn’t,” says my friend, a City of London executive who has put several children through elite private schools in Britain. “I think he got short-changed.”</span>

I’ve been hearing this more and more from fellow parents with kids at top day and boarding schools in recent years. Some of it sounds like whining: most of us like to think the best of our progeny. But my friend has a point. After years of hand-wringing about unequal access to elite higher education, admissions standards are finally shifting.

A decade ago, parents who handed over tens of thousands of pounds a year for the likes of Eton College, St Paul’s School or King’s College School in Wimbledon could comfortably assume their kids had a very good chance of attending Oxford or Cambridge, two of the best universities in the world. A 2018 Sutton Trust study showed that just eight institutions, six of them private, accounted for more Oxbridge places than 2,900 other UK secondary schools combined. When the headmaster of Westminster School boasted at an open evening that half the sixth form went on to Oxbridge, approving murmurs filled the wood-panelled hall. (I was there.) ...

TBH I'm not fussed whether people's parents paid for their education and whether they boarded or not. I'm more offended by the fact that only 27% of the cabinet are women... where are the rest of the women? Surely that's the most glaring imbalance?

@MrPickles73:

27% women is dismal, granted, but it only means that the number of men is about half again what it would be in a genuinely representative cabinet.

for ex boarding school pupils we're talking about the number being 50 or so times what it 'should' be, and for ex private dayschool pupils the number is around say 7 times what it 'should' be.

@MrPickles73
You really should be fussed about whether people whose parents paid for their education are over represented in the cabinet. For it is no indication that they are the most intelligent or best experienced for the job, only that they are more likely to get it due to connections, and how can a cabinet made up of people from the minority of 7% that fall in to this category make decisions that affect the other 93% with any understanding. I am alarmed you are not worried TBH.

Hoopa I suspect that 90% of them also come from the South East of England, this also jars me but its not my #1 concern.

For it is no indication that they are the most intelligent or best experienced for the job, only that they are more likely to get it due to connections, and how can a cabinet made up of people from the minority of 7% that fall in to this category make decisions that affect the other 93% with any understanding.

I suspect if they have been to Oxbridge they are atleast 'reasonably' intelligent. They may not be THE brightest but I suspect they are in the top 5% of the population. I have no clue what experience you need to be a politician - it seems for most of them they are career politicians so in my humble opinion have no 'experience'. For what its worth I'm not overly in my children going to Oxbridge or politics. From what I've seen of both - neither impress me.. For what its worth I'm not a fan of the 'old boys network' at all. Especially as I am not a boy but I do think it is weakening and not as effective as it once was.
I'm a massive fan of social mobility which is why I think education is key and think the whole COVID hash has been a massive shitshow for children and their futures...

@puffyisgood

To be meaningful, they would have had to control for selection. There is more selection in private sector than state.

Agree the boarding school stat is jaw dropping. And boarding schools are less selective than the best day schools around London in particular.

@Greygreygrey - whilst there is more selection in the average private school than the average state school, it's important not to overstate the significance of this - e.g. [quite apart from the millions of bright people who go through comprehensives without sitting a test for either a private or grammar school] in the UK there are roughly the same number of GS places as there are PS places, the average GS [i'm not talking about comparing St Paul's with say the worst GS in Belfast] is more academically selective than the average PS, and still the cabinet only includes 6 state educated kids vs 23 private, that's pretty stark.

It would be really helpful to see stats. Like entrance odds for grammar vs private schools on average. And percentage acceptance at Oxbridge of applicants with all As and A*s over the last 30 years.

I can’t find them by googling.

I would like to see a breakdown of the 'state' school DC getting to Oxbridge. If places are being given to those from more deprived backgrounds who are at a low performing school, then brilliant. However where I live folks pay over a million for a property to access the local outstanding state. Which has its gifted and talented section with a number heading to Oxbridge. I can assure you they are not from deprived backgrounds and have parents who range from comedians, actors, editors, journalists..

I haven't read this link but this is a post from the other thread by @irregularegular who I think works in this area

Yet the figures are all lumped together and we're made to feel grateful that things appear to be changing when in reality they may not be for the likes of students at my DC's former comp.

This isn't true anymore. The target groups are the more disadvantaged, as identified by post code and this is where all the recent improvement is, not kids from high performing state schools in affluent areas. See stats here: www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/disadvantage

Are there any statistics on what type of school foreign students come from? I can't help but think Oxbridge will abuse this 'chance to no longer be elite' to hand select state school students in the U.K. whilst simultaneously picking out the most 'monies' candidates around the world, hardly not elitist.

Its about all other things being equal if there are two candidates with equal merit and one place, the place will be given to the state school child over the private school child. That isn't right

I think this is right. State educated children have to work harder to achieve the same grades that's just a fact.
I'm glad the balance is being addressed. The amount of people from private schools that dominate society is wrong, whether it's politics, the media or sport. This is such a small percentage of society and these children aren't better, they've had more advantages and connections.
I don't have any family or friends that went to private school, I grew up in a very working class area and my 3 kids go to state school. However I now have a good career, which is in general dominated by the privately educated. When I receive job applications from private school students I must admit I tend to prefer the state educated ones. It's true though that all state schools aren't equal and many in very posh areas are so exclusive due to house prices they're basically private schools.

When I receive job applications from private school students I must admit I tend to prefer the state educated ones.

If you were to swap words state and private this would sound awful.

I’m a line manager who does hiring from time to time. I’m so desperate for good people that have technical nouse, people skills and the ability to communicate clearly that I can’t turn my nose up at anyone’s background.

I just hired a young woman who speaks Estuary English. She is clever, engaged and engaging, I’m chuffed to bits with her joint the team. I’d like to think I would have seen her talent, even if she spoke with a plum in her mouth. Avoiding bias cuts both ways.

Yes you're right the best candidate should always get the job but when sectors are dominated with the privately educated maybe more bias is needed?

Yes, it's why I know people who took their kids out of private, into grammar to get into top unis

How could an employee possibly know whether the school on an application form is private or state? Its not always obvious and apart from the well known schools most folks wont have heard of.

employer I meant...

I think it must be getting harder for very selective private schools to manage expectations as from this thread times are changing.

I actually pity 6th formers at these schools as Oxbridge offer day must be emotional with a lot of pupils knowing applicants.

It must be harder for teachers to state a child is 'Oxbridge material' when they know fewer applicants are successful.

How could an employee possibly know whether the school on an application form is private or state?
Google?

Bit late responding to this thread, but one of the main things we need to teach future generations - especially with Brexit, Covid, wars, climate change - is how to adapt to change. Our ds’s are at independent schools and we’ve told them not only that they don’t have to go to uni, but if they decide they want to (as they’re less likely to get into top UK unis now than a few decades ago) they need to try other continents - sure, the states (if they can get someone to pay for that - because we won’t!) but also India, China, Japan etc (I was suggesting Russia until recent events changed things…).
The world, universities and so many jobs are global: the next generations have masses of options if they’re willing to adapt (fast!) to change. I think that’s really exciting.

I find this sort of thread, and the fixation on Oxbridge very strange.

Both DC went to Westminster where they had a fantastic education which prepared them well for University. Both took 5 A levels and both got the sort of grades you would expect from bright students attending a selective private school. Both graduated with very good degrees, one from LSE and the other from Imperial (in econometrics and mathematical economics and in biomedical engineering respectively, degrees not offered by Oxbridge.)

Do we regret their secondary education because they did not go to Oxbridge. Obviously not.

I asked DS if he felt it was a pity he was not offered a place at Cambridge. Perhaps, as he might have enjoyed college life. However he did not think he would have done as well. In part because with a more selective intake he might not have stood out in the way he could at LSE. In part because the breadth of the LSE course allowed him to focus on what he was good at. Essentially maths rather than essays. DD did not apply. The Oxbridge reputation of dreaming spires and elitism did not appeal, nor did essay writing, and there were more suitable courses elsewhere.

@Needmoresleep
mine find the fixation on private schools rather strange too. They would far rather get a good, broad state school education, go to a great Uni and then have some help on to the housing market.
I suppose it is horses for courses hey.

I know of a child who lives in an enormous manor house with acres of land and goes to a very, very well known public school but because the local village is a poor, run down one they had an adjusted offer because they came from an area of low participation in higher education

I agree with this. In our village the same postcode covers council houses, small privately owned houses, a farmhouse, a Manor House and a large Old Vicarage. Several of the children in this postcode go to private schools.

Plus the privileged child has the opportunity to explain any extenuating circumstances on their application

Bovrilly, is there anything preventing the privileged child from inventing extenuating circumstances? Also, what counts as “extenuating circumstances”?
My cousins were definitely ‘privileged’ in that their parents had plenty of money and all the things that usually accompany that, but their father was a distant, uninterested father and the mother was an alcoholic and pill addict.
They didn’t have a happy upbringing at all.
Would that count as “extenuating circumstances”?

When I receive job applications from private school students I must admit I tend to prefer the state educated ones

Putbaby do you prefer the state educated ones on principal because you don’t like ‘posh’ people?

@Needmoresleep oh the irony of an ex-Westminster pupil being put off by the elitism of Oxbridge!