50% in 11+ practice... 3 months to go, what to do?

[CherryLeaf]

Hi all, I’d really like your advice on what we should do next.
We’re a military family, moved recently into a grammar school area. Dd currently finishing yr 5 so will take 11+ in Sept.
Dd is bright, always been ahead in her classes in English and Maths despite numerous military moves (3 schools in last 3 years!). We are finally stopping here and I’d love to give her the chance to go to grammar school as I think she would excel there. We have the study books and have been working through for last 2 months but it’s a mammoth task! No tutoring available as all full. Local tutor was able to offer practice test, which she did and got average 50% over the 4 areas. It seems 75-85% is needed generally. I don’t know if I should help her try to get there, or if the gap is too big now. I’ve asked her what she would like and she’s not sure. I’m unsure if she knows much about what the difference would be in her life, and honestly I don’t know either. I just know she’s bright and feel she is just unfamiliar with this style of test/questions.
If you were in my shoes what would you do next? Thanks

I went to a “super selective” girls grammar (not in Bucks).

It was bloody miserable. Not (for me) academically - I was in the top sets for most things. But it was an absolute vipers nest. Pupils bullied pupils, staff bullied pupils, and one group of 13 year old girls bullied a young male teacher so badly that he had a breakdown and left teaching altogether. I didn’t stay on for sixth form because I was so unhappy, and I have not kept in touch with anyone.

To this day the experience of that school - which parents still fight tooth and nail to get their kids into - has left huge scars on me. It has really affected the way I look at my own DC and make decisions on their schooling. Happiness is number one, basically, and selective grammars do not mean happiness.

My theory, FWIW, is that at least a quarter of pupils at these schools really struggle academically - perhaps because they are coached within an inch of their lives to scrape through the 11+ - and their way of playing out their insecurity and frustration is to treat other people like crap.

When my son took the 11 plus, we took him for a mock exam. The talk to the parents was completely focused on speed. They said the main reasons kids don't pass is because they simply didn't answer enough questions and if there's anything to work on, it's that.

Hi OP, I too have a daughter who will be taking the Bucks 11+ in September. I don't think 90 mins extra work a day is necessary, but 30 mins a day plus a couple of hours' tuition once a week is fairly common round here (we're in one of the more competitive areas though). Your plan sounds sound, and the only other recommendation I would make is to get hold of some CGP 11+ vocab cards and get your daughter to go through those - one or two a day - as it will help for the comprehension section and the verbal reasoning. Best of luck!

I do believe anything is possible so long as you and your daughter are prepared to put the work in together. I started with my eldest much later than you, and it was a stressful time but we managed! Going through it all again now but luckily we started earlier this time! We're using Atom learning, for us it was affordable comparatively to a private tutor, and since she 'enjoys' the platform it's less of a daily battle as it was with my eldest.

Update: she didn’t quite make it, got 111 and she was so upset. I’m sad for her as I feel she would thrive at grammar school and she’s above expectations in all areas at school, and she passed all the mock tests with the tutors. Her closest friend has got through and DD was so sad it’s hard to watch. I don’t think we’ll be able to appeal with that score so we’ll need to focus on the local comprehensive. It’s listed as needs improvement for both Sen and stretching high achievers but it’s our only option that’s close by. I’m keeping upbeat for her and positive about her other option but inside I felt she really deserved to go. I reassure her and myself that she works hard, so will do well where ever she goes but I do wish I had known more and started revising/tutoring sooner. Anyone else navigated this?

OP I am sorry to hear this, particularly sorry for your daughter because it is hard when your closest friend got in and you didn’t.

What I told my DS (who was also a bit dicey at maths) is, a) no regrets if you’ve worked hard and done your best and b) everything happens for a reason. It is much better to be in top sets and doing well academically at school than at the bottom and struggling to keep up.

When was the local comp last OFSTED rated? It may have improved since its last inspection - quite often they get kicked up the backside by OFSTED and they do improve. Equally “outstanding” schools sit on their laurels and tend to go downhill.

But also worth looking around to see what other options there are so you have a plan B if the local comp doesn’t work out.

@CherryLeaf I would have a chat with your daughter’s current school with regards to a selection review (which is different to an appeal). The purpose of these is to “prove” that the child just had a bad day on the test but all the available academic evidence backs this up. It is also possible to highlight any exceptional circumstances that may have impacted.

The current school has to provide Bucks CC with a “suitability for grammar” score prior to the exams being sat. If your school has graded her 1s or 2s (you can ask) then it’s worth pursuing. If not, then you can forget it.

The headteacher also has to be supportive of the request. For those pupils for whom it is a real anomaly then they are happy to do this. You also have to provide evidence of academic achievement to support your review. School reports etc. Given your daughter has been at several schools over her primary life and only recently moved, this could be classed as exceptional circumstances. I assume her previous school could also provide evidence of academic achievement too which would help bolster your application.

Note that you cannot use evidence from 11+ tutors are you aren’t supposed to tutor………..

BUT, scores lower than 115 are rarely successful at selection review. Not impossible, but your evidence would need to be top notch. For example, being graded 1–1 for suitability, a glowing headteacher report and several recent school reports showing she is exceeding expectations.

If you decide to go down this route then don’t tell her you are doing so. Continue to big up the other school.

You will also need to put the grammar on your CAF form without knowing whether or not you were successful. If she would only get the other school anyway then this is not an issue but if she has a realistic chance at getting into other schools then it might be a risk to use a space.

So if you genuinely believe your daughter is very bright then you have nothing to lose.

There’s lots of info on the 11+ forum website.

Hi, i work in a prep near Buckinghamshire and almost every year we are asked about appeals for children who just missed out. I’m not sure we’ve ever had anyone with 111 get in on appeal I’m afraid. I also think appealing unsuccessfully can bring a whole extra round of disappointment when they get a ‘no’ second time round, like failing all over again. I’ve had to support a few students who this happened to.

The appeals we’ve had which have been successful were generally just below 121 (117 or above I think) and generally they had 2 pass scores and 1 fail, and we had evidence from exams in school that they were better than that in that specific subject. If your daughter has a score profile like that it might be more worth pursuing the appeal, but if 3 similar scores probably suggests she’s just a little below the required standard unfortunately . There are some good comprehensive schools in bucks too (obviously depending where exactly), I’d start looking at these if I were you. I think for plenty of children it’s better to be at the top of a comp than struggling to keep up in the grammar. Good luck.

So sorry for your daughter, it is so hard for them.

Don't beat yourselves up about not starting earlier. We didn't have any tutoring for ours, just made practice materials available to them (barely touched despite much encouragement). Two qualified for Bucks, one didn't.

We decided not to go to review or appeal, the score just wasn't high enough. It felt like it would be reinforcing any idea in our child's head that the alternative school wasn't good enough and we wanted to approach their new school as positively as possible and didn't want them to ever feel that they somehow weren't as good as their siblings and friends going to grammar.

Approaching GCSEs the non grammar school child is getting lots of excellent results (nothing below a 7 in recent exams). There seems to be a very different demographic across the school compared to the grammar but at the same time they seem to move in circles of people most like them in outlook and have found their place. They want to stay at the non-grammar for A-levels rather than transfer.

I would have a chat with your daughter’s current school with regards to a selection review (which is different to an appeal)

I'm sorry to hear the news about your DD, but I really don't think there is much point in this given the score – you would have almost no chance of getting through with a score of 111 unless you have some major extenuating circumstances (such as serious illness in the family), and the review/appeal process can be quite demanding and distressing in itself.

Much better to talk positively about the school she will be attending and providing lots of support. Where will she be going to school?

FWIW we were in this position some years ago, DD went to a secondary modern with none of her primary school friends and which had a poor reputation locally at the time. She has recently completed a highly academic STEM Masters at a world-leading university… GSs are not the be-all and end-all (and we have another DC who went to a GS).

6 children from DS’s Bucks primary school got first class degrees. Of those 6, one passed the 11+.

Make of that what you will, but it says to me that the Bucks 11+ is a pretty useless predictor of ability or future academic achievement.

If you’re not from a military family then you will never understand the impact on education. My cousin went to six schools in ten years. This is why a significant number of military families choose boarding school. These children ARE at a disadvantage even before you throw in Covid.

So if the OP’s child is very bright and it can be evidenced that she is of grammar material then I would encourage them to pursue it. The key is does the evidence support it?

I would agree that a child who has been at the same primary throughout with a score of 111 stands little chance. But with extenuating circumstances AND a solid high performing school record, the OP has nothing to lose. So long as she listens to her headteacher and is realistic. If the headteacher fully supports the selection review AND has ranked her as suitable for grammar then the OP should appeal. For the historical statistics available, 20-35% of children who got 111 in the tests were successful at selection review. That’s a one in four / one in three chance. If you had odds of winning the lottery jackpot like that you’d play every week.

If your headteacher is not supportive or didn’t rank her 1s and 2s in the suitability for grammar tests then forget it. If they are 100% on board then fight for it.

I'm sorry but I don't think your figures are right. According to the information I have seen, only 7% of children on 111 got through on review or appeal (in 2017, I've been looking for more recent stats on OP's behalf).

I totally sympathise with the military angle, or indeed any child who has been forced to change schools regularly, it must have an impact as your rightly say. However, you need to be aware that reviews/appeals have a large degree of latitude in how much weight they give to extenuating circumstances. They might consider it highly relevant or they might disregard it completely.

toomuchicecream, yes it's a very blunt instrument and a poor way of assessing 10-year-olds imo. Most educationalists will tell you that educational achievement is not linear – some people do really well early in their school careers, some at GCSE, and others not until they have narrowed their fields of study down to 3 or even 1 subject.

I’m sorry your daughter is so upset. Y6 DS sat the entrance exam for the local super selective, and despite getting 85 - 90% in his practice papers, he scored low on the day. Fortunately he’s not too bothered (none of friends passed either) but I still feel guilty for putting him through it.

Agree with the PP who asked how old the comprehensive Ofsted is. Have you been to look round for yourself?

We have a comprehensive near us with an “Inadequate” Ofsted from 6 years ago. We went to the open day a few weeks ago and were really impressed! The head spoke honestly and passionately about what the school had done to improve, and how desperate they were for another inspection that would conform the changes that have been made. The facilities were great and the pupils seemed calm and content, so now it’s one of our top choices.

Thank you all for all of your practical advice and support, it’s been really useful. I have booked an appt with the head on Thursday to discuss whether we have an option to appeal. I suspect not, but then I can honestly say that we both tried our absolute best and just move on. It’s been a tough weekend, it will be good to have the final answer on it. Thanks for all of your support, the result was much more emotional than I anticipated. Will let you know after the chat on Thursday. 💐 to each of you.

@CherryLeaf I think that’s a good move. At least you’ll know whether it’s worth “fighting” for after speaking with the head.

It is emotional but honestly, children are not defined by whether or not they passed a test at 10 years old and it certainly doesn’t mean that they will be any less successful in later life than those who did pass.

The chat in the playground will be dying down and everything will start to feel ok. And it really WILL be ok.

Im sorry to hear of your disappointment after she worked so hard. You could always register for an in year move? You never know. And keep on top of the academic work in case the opportunity comes up. A friend of mine's son didn't get the 11+ but then got the opportunity at October half term and passed. So don't give up

Had the call with the headmistress, she explained the gap is too big at a score of 111. She confirmed DD is working at greater depth across the board at school but it all depends on how they perform in the test on the day. Apparently there are nearly 900 appeals each year and without dramatic extenuating circumstances (military life wouldn’t count) it wouldn’t be considered with a 10 point gap. So it’s ok, I feel that I tried everything I possibly could to give her the best chance, and now we can focus on the other schools. Thanks for all of your support, it was so helpful in navigating this.

@CherryLeaf I think it’s so important you had that chat with the head as it draws a line under it and you can now mentally move on without worrying about the “what if”.

For what it’s worth, I failed the 11+ and went to a bog standard school. I actually enjoyed being towards the top of the school academically - it’s far better to be there than scraping along at the bottom of the year.

Bright children can, and do, get fabulous exam results from non grammar schools. Your daughter really will be fine. You gave it your best shot.

I'm sorry to hear your news, CherryLeaf, but it's as I suspected.

You know there's a 12+ option in Bucks, don't you? You can register DD for it and then decide nearer the time whether she should actually take it or not, depending on how she gets on at her new school. We did this with DD but she settled so well (despite knowing nobody) that we didn't bother with it in the end. Other DCs we knew did take it, passed, and moved to GS in Y8. It's worth considering if you really feel she would be better off at a GS.

In the meantime, you are doing absolutely the right thing to focus positively on where your DD will be going – do you know which school it will be? There's a lot of snobbery in the area about certain schools, just ignore it.