Character: All girls prep vs outstanding state

[commuters30]

Which would you say gives the biggest chance of helping our DD become a confident, resilient and smart young woman?

1. A small girls prep that produces outstanding academic results, but facilities are not like most fancy private schools.

1. An outstanding ofsted state school that is mixed rather than single sex.

Happy to pay the fees for the prep but at the cusp of not knowing which suits better having seen both schools. If only we all had a crystal ball... we want her to attend highly selective grammars, so thought the academic prep would suit but then perhaps the state allows her to deal with more variety of people and situations and grow up more resilient...?

What are the leavers destinations like for the prep. Do you know anyone who went there? What are they like?

How small is small - mixed year groups? How financially viable is the prep school?

It doesn't need to have amazing facilities but does it have good classrooms and a good play area?

Conversely does the state school have any luck with grammars? What are their facilities like? Do you know anyone who attended that school?

If your DD doesn't get in at 11+ what are your plans? Would you need the money for private secondary?

Looking at your description of both schools, the academic prep looks like the better option to achieving your end goal of a Super selective grammar. Then again you can always go State and spend a fraction of your fees on tutors.

What schools are you currently looking at? Using the terms "Academic Prep" and "Outstanding state" is quite vague as no two schools are the same so naming the schools or even just their locations might get you a more precise answer.

Lastly the PP touched on the topic I was going to comment on. What happens if you don't get the SS Grammar place? Would you continue to use the State system or simply opt out and go Private?

@elij00 sorry, the schools are :

1. Prep : Seaton House School. 20 intake a year and girls only. They get c.50% of their leavers going to super selective grammars (nonsuch girls high or wallington girls). But... it is essentially a residential house.

1. Cuddington Croft Primary. No virtual tours or physical visits but online shows a decent space and they do incredibly well at SATS (33% greater depth across all subjects and c.90% meet expectations). No data on grammars unfortunately...

As a back up for secondary, we would probably have to pay for private if there are decent ones otherwise move into catchment for a good state but probably too late by then.

You are the best chance of helping your daughter become confident (evidence shows that parental input is the biggest determinant of a child's success) Her smartness is already predetermined by her genes.
Forgetting about education for a moment, which school would make her happiest and allow her a lovely childhood.

@Aboutnow and there is the million dollar question. I dont know where she would be happiest... a big mixed school can be a happy place, but also could get happiness from doing well and being good at what she does. I know there is no simple answer sadly!

It is so tough, I have three DD's and they are all so different and each time I have put a lot of thought to schools (they are much older than your DD.)
For me, local friendships, community has always won and mine are at fairly normal state schools but are the top of their cohort which is great for confidence. We spend a lot on tutors for extra support as they get older, spend our life driving them around their various sports which arguably we wouldn't do if we had chosen the prep. However, they can walk out the door and see their huge groups of friends, they can have endless sleep overs within a 5 mile radius, and to me that it priceless. Their social lives make them very happy, and then that means that they put a lot in to their school work/sports/extra curricular.
Unhappy children don't flourish academically. Have a think about what makes you happy and which school might have suited you. What sort of commute? Do you cope well with stress? Do you like friendships with men (this was a deal breaker with all three of my DD's who had great boy friendships which they really value as they get older.) One of my DD's is very academic but would have hated the stress of the local super selective and is much happier at the non-selective school in top sets and then with a tutor to push her/help her explore more widely.

If you have a goal of the grammar schools then the Prep seems to make sense. My two went to state primary schools and there wasn’t any support for the 11+.

I don't think Cuddington Croft is outstanding rated - seems to be good instead? There results do seem to be pretty good - although conversely 90% meeting expectations means 1 in 10 do not.

Have you read the full ofsted and isi reports? Obviously with covid etc these will be a bit outdated but they will give you a fuller picture of what has been flagged as a problem in the past.

I don't think the facilities at Seaton are too bad, it is obviously a small facility but they have tennis courts etc afaik.

Given your goals I would lean towards the prep to keep doors open.

It depends on your plans for Secondary School.

Prep for Grammar or Private

State for state

My DC were lucky to go to excellent state Schools both mixed.

If it helps, we are at a nearby outstanding state primary (North Cheam) with similarly outstanding SATs results. Approx 12-15 girls (of 60) go to Nonsuch each year. My DS went to a boys' grammar from there and, unforeseen disaster notwithstanding, DD is likely to go to Nonsuch.

Considering the location, I would expect the same of Cuddington. If it's the same as ours, they don't do 11+ prep, but the SATs prep is very good (and the Sutton Grammar tests should be based on ks2 content, in theory).

To have that option, you must be very close to Nonsuch - worth remembering that your DD's score won't have to be super high to get a place because of ring-fenced and catchment criteria. I would save your money.

DO you know any parents at Seaton House? Just wondering how much tutoring goes on outside of school on top of the fees. It's not unheard of...

At least with state primary you only have to pay for tutoring.

How old is your DD?

No but i wish i did know - as you say, its hard to tell whether achievements are due to the school or the parents private tutoring on top.

@namestheyareachanging that is some impressive outcomes for the kids at North Cheam! If only they publish this. With this info, it is hard to see whether a prep like Seaton really adds anything on top of what North Cheam, Cuddington Croft or Avenue might add....

Be wary of small intake all-girls schools. Fewer options if you don't find your 'tribe'. For example, friend's DD had difficulties as a football-loving girl in a class of ballet and horse-riding types, and it didn't work out too well. So I'd consider whether your DD is very 'typical' for a girl in terms of interests, and good at getting on with everybody, and therefore likely to find good friends in even a small group of classmates. And I'd choose a larger or mixed intake if not.
I'd also think about after school activities on offer at the two schools. Who'd be looking after her after school, and could they ship her around to various clubs outside school? If not, that might sway me towards private, if, as is typical, the private has good after-school activities on site and the state school has much less going on after hours. If you can get her to things around town, I'd probably go mixed state at primary, with some extra tutoring if and when needed (and thus saving money for private secondary if she doesn't get into the grammars you're hoping for).

@menotastic

Be wary of small intake all-girls schools. Fewer options if you don't find your 'tribe'. For example, friend's DD had difficulties as a football-loving girl in a class of ballet and horse-riding types, and it didn't work out too well. So I'd consider whether your DD is very 'typical' for a girl in terms of interests, and good at getting on with everybody, and therefore likely to find good friends in even a small group of classmates. And I'd choose a larger or mixed intake if not. I'd also think about after school activities on offer at the two schools. Who'd be looking after her after school, and could they ship her around to various clubs outside school? If not, that might sway me towards private, if, as is typical, the private has good after-school activities on site and the state school has much less going on after hours. If you can get her to things around town, I'd probably go mixed state at primary, with some extra tutoring if and when needed (and thus saving money for private secondary if she doesn't get into the grammars you're hoping for).

Absolutely agree, we left prep in favour of mixed bigger classes, more friendship options and local friends, much much happier environment, all five kids now at single sex grammar schools having paid for 11+ tutoring. You just need a good back up in case they don't pass the 11+

I wouldn't go for a primary all girls but would, and did, for secondary. If you are looking at mixed grammar anyway, a few years at an all girls primary won't have an impact, it is more important at secondary.

Additionally I wouldn't go for such a small school. My DD was bullied at her prep in year 3 and they just moved her to a different class. You won't have this option.

Lastly, I don't know if things have changed but my DCs schools didn't do SATs, in fact it was one of the reasons for me leaving the state sector. If you go state you will need tutoring for 11+ but with the short state school day it's easy to fit in.

Thanks... i hadnt thought of negatives of a small school but the last 3 posts now have me worried!

When you said it was a residential house I was curious and looked it up on the map. I wouldn’t personally be keen on such a small site. You’re not really getting the full added value of grounds etc that might be more typical of a prep experience.

Could you not try the state and then go for 7 plus entry at the prep if you’re not happy/think your daughter would need more tuition ahead of grammar. A lot depends on local your market forces though. Near me there are lots of very good independents at secondary level and lots of outstanding state primaries. Many parents save the money for secondary but if grammar is the aim, you end up with a different market.

For me, the value add for infants isn’t there. The picture is slightly different for year 3 onwards and I might review again but really the main difference seems to be smaller classes music provision and having an on-site swimming pool.

On the subject of music provision, most of the state schools in the Sutton borough have Sutton Music Service come in to offer instrumental lessons (for fees). DS learnt two instruments from yr 3 and left primary school with Grade 6 and Grade 4. DD is in Yr 5 and has a Grade 5 and a Grade 2 (latter started in Yr 4). Orchestra was also very strong until Covid.
So if music is a consideration for you, look into whether SMS go to Cuddington.