Should fee paying schools stop pretending that scholarships and bursaries make them charitable than they really are?

[Oohhhbetty]

Across the papers today. I put in the Daily Fail as isn't behind paywall. Interested to know what people think. In our local fee paying the bursaries seem to go to families who were at fee paying schools themselves and know to approach the schools - and they rent a house rather than buy, still drive 4x4's etc. Size of rental doesn't seem to matter, I know one family in a 6 bed farmhouse! I don't see a huge amount of social mobility going on, but we are in rural area so might be different in cities.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/private-schools-accused-of-obscuring-how-little-they-spend-on-scholarships-t9nzgcv0r

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9466863/Private-school-scholarships-little-boost-social-mobility-says-study.html

In our local fee paying the bursaries seem to go to families who were at fee paying schools themselves and know to approach the schools - and they rent a house rather than buy

This is a massive generalisation. I got a bursary for DD1 for a local private school...not because I'd been to one...I went to a state school in a deprived area...but because I'd been to uni, got an education and worked out that if you don't ask, you don't get.

We rented...because we couldn't afford to buy!

@FortunesFave Wasn't even a generalisation, was purely anecdotal, based on the people that I know and I said that I know that there will be other experiences.
I just wondered what other people thought, whether schools are doing enough? Sounds like you have had a good experience which is brilliant. But could more be done? Interested to know.

There is a little private primary school on my town which has a big banner up outside advertising that a very high percentage of their pupils (can't remember % but very high) win scholarships to private schools. So that seems like the same old privilege leading to privilege to me.

EvilEdna a scholarship isn't the same as a bursary though so that is irrelevant.
A scholarship is an academic honour. It may mean a token 5% discount on fees, or if it is a music or sports scholarship subsidised training, but it isn't means tested and wouldn't in any way make private school affordable for those who couldnt otherwise pay.
Bursaries are means tested on a sliding scale and will cover between 10-100% of fees depending on income. Most private schools are tough on this, they do home visits, ask to see financial documents to make sure people aren't hiding money to play them etc.
The bursary system is pretty good at most private schools. The problem is with outreach which varies. Some schools will go out to the most deprived areas of town and scout bright pupils. Others will just put something on the website so only middle class educated parents (who i fairness still couldn't otherwise afford it) tend to look and know about it.

@QuarantineQueen that is interesting thank you. What did you think of the finding of the report mentioned in the articles? Were you surprised?

Yeah I know bursaries are not the same as scholarships. However, sometimes those scholarships are substantial and it would seem they are much more likely to go to previously fee paying pupils.

My DD is at a private school on a full bursary. I have to be honest, I hadn't even considered the possibility until a friend whose DD had a 50% bursary at a different school told me about it. DD's state school had never heard of kids from their school attending on a full bursary - and were so amazed that I had to go in and give a talk to the teachers

Much more should be done to ensure that all children and parents/carers are at least aware of the independent option rather than simply ruling it out.

@Oohhhbetty I'm not really surprised but I don't think it will apply to all private schools. I'm also not entirely convinced it is by design in many cases rather than just lazy book keeping.
Some don't have much in the way of bursary funds, others have a lot. Most of that comes down to how old they are - the older ones with endowments can afford more. Most private schools are not for profit and the sector is currently running on a shoestring with lots of smaller schools closing so it's not like there's a whole load of money spare they could use if they wanted! I think most do their best in terms of number of bursaries. The big names of course are the exceptions who are financially secure, but they do tend to have decent sized bursary funds.
The ones with bigger bursary funds will be the oldest ones, and those that are part of a trust (like GDST) with central trust bursary funds. But then outreach to schools in more deprived areas is dependent on the individual school and I think that is where a lot are really lacking.

I think it depends on the school. The two biggest bursary givers in the country are Christs Hospital which looks at potential bursarial holders with a fine toothcomb and WHitgift foundation which uses bursaries and scholarships to pick up the brightest of the grammar school failures in the Croydon area.

CH is really interested not just in finances but the family set up and reasons why a child needs to be there. I think that their bursary programme is probably life changing for the 80% of pupils who get one.

Bursaries go to families that are motivated to a) care deeply about education b) can go through the process of application c) can encourage their children through the entrance tests. This is NOT the poorest families that could most benefit from this education. This is mostly middle class, aspirational families who do not earn enough to send their kids for full fees but really value education.

At DDs school, scholarships do not offer any fee reduction at all - just the prestige and a programme of “extras” to support their talent e.g. free music lessons on one instrument for music, gifted and talented programmes for academic scholars etc.

The only fee reduction goes to bursary holders.

@FortunesFave

In our local fee paying the bursaries seem to go to families who were at fee paying schools themselves and know to approach the schools - and they rent a house rather than buy

This is a massive generalisation. I got a bursary for DD1 for a local private school...not because I'd been to one...I went to a state school in a deprived area...but because I'd been to uni, got an education and worked out that if you don't ask, you don't get.

We rented...because we couldn't afford to buy!

Completely agree. Very unhelpful generalisation, 'anecdotal' or otherwise. As is your use of the phrase on another thread 'a very wealthy prep' I'm aware of many families who've been helped enormously by bursaries, whose children would no way be able to attend otherwise and who are not playing the system, as is your implication, but who apply fairly and squarely, as could anyone. Also in my relatively wide experience of private schools, families who send their children are hugely varied. Many make significant sacrifices to send their children private, which others families would not choose to make. Many work in jobs they wouldn't otherwise do to be able to afford fees. Many have grandparents paying and a fair number have bursaries. Oh course some are utterly loaded but that's just life.

@Legoninjago1
totally agree with you about huge diversity in the fee paying sector, I have worked in both and seen all sorts. That particular prep that my friend is deputy at is a very wealthy top tier one (think young, foreign boarders) but I take onboard what you said and apologise if it offended you.
As for my generalisation upthread I did pre-own it. I just don't personally know anyone with a difficult life situation who is benefitting from a bursary, which is why I was interested to hear from people who are and who feel that fee paying schools are doing enough in this area.

[quote Oohhhbetty]@Legoninjago1
totally agree with you about huge diversity in the fee paying sector, I have worked in both and seen all sorts. That particular prep that my friend is deputy at is a very wealthy top tier one (think young, foreign boarders) but I take onboard what you said and apologise if it offended you.
As for my generalisation upthread I did pre-own it. I just don't personally know anyone with a difficult life situation who is benefitting from a bursary, which is why I was interested to hear from people who are and who feel that fee paying schools are doing enough in this area.[/quote]
Thanks. Not offended, just a bit tired of all the private school bashing at the moment and wish people understood there are all sorts that use them. I should prob spend less time on these boards...!

@Legoninjago1
I think we are the opposites then as I am so sick of the assumptions that state school children are 'feral' as a recent poster claimed, comments often seem to imply that 93% of the UK population are somehow suboptimal!!

I think I should spend less time here too, but weirdly I think that the more that we can all see how similar we are, and how similar are children are, the less division there will be in the future. Children don't feel the division nearly as much as the adults I don't think! They all come together at university and jobs mostly very happily, so none of it means much in the end.

Most independent schools are registered charities. This means that they cannot operate for profit, and must show that they are creating public benefit.

[quote Oohhhbetty]@Legoninjago1
I think we are the opposites then as I am so sick of the assumptions that state school children are 'feral' as a recent poster claimed, comments often seem to imply that 93% of the UK population are somehow suboptimal!!

I think I should spend less time here too, but weirdly I think that the more that we can all see how similar we are, and how similar are children are, the less division there will be in the future. Children don't feel the division nearly as much as the adults I don't think! They all come together at university and jobs mostly very happily, so none of it means much in the end.[/quote]
Well whoever said that is obviously extremely misguided and I think you can safely discount extreme comments like that as definitely not the generally held view. Anyone with any common sense and a modicum of life experience knows that there are many shite privates and many, many excellent states and as you say, the vast, vast majority of the nation's children are at state schools, so to brand them all feral is just nonsensical.

We go private for small class sizes, facilities and extra curricular in the main and I imagine that my boys will encounter more feral kids at their slightly eccentric pre prep than they would at the local primary!

@KirstenBlest

Most independent schools are registered charities. This means that they cannot operate for profit, and must show that they are creating public benefit.

Yep and you can see in their published accounts exactly what has been paid out in the way of bursaries, as well as commentary on any other charitable efforts during that reporting year.

I think that the articles posted in the OP are suggesting that there has been a gentle 'muddling' of accounts to make them appear more charitable than they are?

Its all a bit of a con. Really disadvantaged families wouldn't know how to go about applying for those bursaries/grants. . Its the usual in the know folk out for something for nothing.

Viviennemary, it's not a con. The 'charitable' bit is that they are non-profit making.

Some of the so-called charities aren't really what a lay person would think of as a charity.

Anyone can look up how to get help with school fees. Even someone with no broadband or internet access can get it at a public library.

A bit of an aside, but it's worth noting that private secondaries can encounter quite a lot of resistance from state primaries in their outreach efforts. As someone who's known a couple of primaries quite well from the inside, it's not uncommon for HTs to be very resistant to taking up the outreach activities that are on offer, and particularly to passing on information about open days, bursaries and so on. A kind of inverse snobbery, if you like - almost a defensiveness that to pass on information to parents is to imply that the local state secondaries aren't 'good enough' for the pupils, or that it is just doing the private schools' marketing for them - and that to participate in outreach activities is almost an admission of failure. Some HTs will also refuse to engage in the admissions process (eg won't provide references), which doesn't help less 'savvy' families feel any more confident about exploring the private/bursary option, even when the independent school seeks to provide reassurance that references and contacts aren't necessary. I'm not saying that this is in any way the whole story - but it is definitely part of it.

@nagrama

A bit of an aside, but it's worth noting that private secondaries can encounter quite a lot of resistance from state primaries in their outreach efforts. As someone who's known a couple of primaries quite well from the inside, it's not uncommon for HTs to be very resistant to taking up the outreach activities that are on offer, and particularly to passing on information about open days, bursaries and so on. A kind of inverse snobbery, if you like - almost a defensiveness that to pass on information to parents is to imply that the local state secondaries aren't 'good enough' for the pupils, or that it is just doing the private schools' marketing for them - and that to participate in outreach activities is almost an admission of failure. Some HTs will also refuse to engage in the admissions process (eg won't provide references), which doesn't help less 'savvy' families feel any more confident about exploring the private/bursary option, even when the independent school seeks to provide reassurance that references and contacts aren't necessary. I'm not saying that this is in any way the whole story - but it is definitely part of it.

This was the case at state primary my dd1 attended - no reference given for entrance processes, no response to emails about possible outreach programmes from local independent senior schools.

I have the impression the HT disapproves of selection by academic ability in principle, rather than disapproving of private schools, but the end result is the same.

@nagrama

A bit of an aside, but it's worth noting that private secondaries can encounter quite a lot of resistance from state primaries in their outreach efforts. As someone who's known a couple of primaries quite well from the inside, it's not uncommon for HTs to be very resistant to taking up the outreach activities that are on offer, and particularly to passing on information about open days, bursaries and so on. A kind of inverse snobbery, if you like - almost a defensiveness that to pass on information to parents is to imply that the local state secondaries aren't 'good enough' for the pupils, or that it is just doing the private schools' marketing for them - and that to participate in outreach activities is almost an admission of failure. Some HTs will also refuse to engage in the admissions process (eg won't provide references), which doesn't help less 'savvy' families feel any more confident about exploring the private/bursary option, even when the independent school seeks to provide reassurance that references and contacts aren't necessary. I'm not saying that this is in any way the whole story - but it is definitely part of it.

Exactly the opposite at DD's state primary. DD had not been there a year when we applied to the independent following a period of homeschooling, but the head at the independent did say that the reference from the primary head played a huge part in her decision.

I agree it isnt the norm though, we were lucky in that we found an excellent primary for DD to do Y6 (desperate to do her KS2 Sats!) who were really supportive in pushing DD and her classmates.