Even good schools have behaviour issues

[CindersNeedsHelp]

Just been prompted by fellow MNer to rant about behaviour issues in schools (I was a teacher before becoming a SAHM) and the comment was made that a majority of kids do not listen and talk back at a school that is well respected, has top grades, etc.

Have read the state or private thread with interest and IMHO, inclusion is the main problem in state education and is the biggest education mistake the government has made in recent years.

I don't know if this has been commented on before now, but I wonder why so many parents take the BS line from the government that it is better for children with special needs to go into a mainstream school! It's just a cost cutting measure to close down schools, put all kids together, and save money on utilities, wages etc. OK, so a few specialist assistants are brought in to help, but so few teachers are conversant in sign language, brail etc. yet are expected to teach deaf and blind students in with other children. It just brings down the quality of education for everyone, even though most teachers try their very best!

Bring back all the different types of special schools so everyone can have an equal quality education, rather than lump everyone, regardless of their individual needs, into a room that is not designed to cope with them, with teachers not trained to deal with them, so everyone has the same (equally bad) experience of education!!!

If you take the social argument that kids need to be with their peers surely children who take the pi55 all the time, and those who have no concept of what life is like are hardly going to help them. Surely trained professionals providing tailed support will help children grow into confident adults able to cope with life. The other argument is that inclusion helps bring children together in an environment more representative of the real world, but ask any home educators, school is an artificial environment anyway. But I digress ...

Plus, not all schools are equal anyway, even though there are few special schools now, and league tables are another major mistake, but that is another issue although!!!

This was really just a rant, but any thoughts, anyone?

I take it you think only SN children deserve an education then?

I think it is a principle of common decency and old-fashioned good manners that we all give way to and defer to the needs of those less able than ourselves. That includes those with disabilities, the very young and the very old. I am really very shocked that a teacher would not be taking the lead in promulgating good manners.

And I am always very suspicious of anyone who goes on about "PC gone mad". It is usually just a cloak for some very prejudiced views.

No-one's denying that special schools are the way to go for some children, and in fact many parents with children who have autism are crying out for suitable special school places for them.

But needmorecoffee's DD isn't by the sounds of it in that category at all.

I?m very sorry you think me prejudiced. I am not.

I would just like to point out that this was never meant to be a discussion about SN. My first post was making the comment that the majority of kids do not listen and talk back at a school! I was not insulting SN children in any way. I was inviting people to comment on why they thought this was the case. My thoughts were that inclusion had a part to play. I was interested to read other arguments about societal problems of raising our children etc. and that was what I was hoping for.

Not a violent defense of SN (which I wasn?t attacking anyway).

So I think I?m going to call an end to my comments, and leave this thread alone.

I?m going to end with this: I love my job. I love helping all children achieve their potential and I think all children should have that opportunity.

But Cinders is talking about quality of education. People with SN, and people without, being entitled to a good education. And the needs of some people being so great that the needs of the majority can not be met either.

I wouldn't want any child to have to defer their own quality of education in order that my DS' SEN can be addressed. Both things need to happen. and the point is that in some situations inclusion is causing this situation.

not read the whole thread but in reply to the opening post i can see the point.
TBH my son is the biggest challenge his school has. He is currently undergoing an assessment with diagnosis probably eing autistic. He has violent melt downs and is restrained on a daily basis. The head at his school has said he is the child with the worst behavioural problems in the school and that even with full time 1:1 (waiting for statement) she doesnt think mainstream can accomodate him.
The LEA on the other hand are keen to keep DS in mainstream despite him being excluded etc for days on end because of the schools inability to cope with him and the other people in the school.
I have recently started looking at special schools in the area. I have 3 choices....
1/ A school for severely disabled children....this would not suit DS at all as he appears normal most of the time and is also very intelligent and the school will not meet his needs in that area.
2/ an autistic unit attached to mainstream, this only has 12 spaces and a waiting list of 2 years so not really an option as DS is at risk of permanent exclusion NOW. Also this school will not challenge DS academically.
3/ a private school for autistic children which costs 60k per year. The LEA would not fund this despite it being the ONLY school in the area that would meet DS needs both academiaclly and autistically and there is no way we could fund this as it costs more per year than our mortgage is.

So yes i agree that mainstream is not viable for alot of children BUT the LEA are to blame for this. Currently i am aware the school are really struggling with DS. The school are recieving complaints about the amount of time that is spent with my DS by the teachers and it horrifies me BUT if i remove DS i will be prosecuted for not sending him to school.

No extra funding is being given to the school either for the extra staff needed to control him.

At my child's school he is the one being left to get on with things while the teacher deals with the behaviour of the NT children. I know this is true because it was the teacher who told me and apologised for it. The teacher wants to give ds1 more challenging work to do but every time they try they have to go and deal with the NT boys.

I could say - And just why should children with SN have to wait patiently for other children in their lesson time? Don?t they deserve an education? Yes NT people should be treated fairly and equally, but not at the cost of other children.

I won't though because that would be a gross overgeneralisation, wouldn't it?

Cinders - if this thread was never intended to be about SN then why say this in your OP:

"IMHO, inclusion is the main problem in state education and is the biggest education mistake the government has made in recent years."

How can you talk about inclusion without discussing SN?

'And just why should the majority of children have to wait patiently for one other child in their lesson time? Don?t they deserve an education? '

because we are all slower and quicker than others in many ways, and learning to accept this (and seeing it demonstarted by teachers) is an important lesson in tolerance, understanding and empathy.

Even on as basic a lvel as just realising it takes longer to do X if you have such and such a condition.

Bonkerz-

there's a lady on thsi group ([email protected]) who successfully managed to take court action to make her LEA send her ds to a private school at their expense. Might help?

thanks wil take a look. i know it can be doen and right now im gathering evidence so when the time is right i can strike!!!!

IPSEA and the NAS educaional line re very good as well (can you tell i've been through 2 statementings? but also turned me into a much stronger person LOL)

with my son its complicated because academically he is doing brilliantly and this would best be provided by mainstream school BUT due to lack of support mainly from LEA the school cannot see themselves with DS long term and a special school for autistic children is now the only thing left to us as ds has already been to 2 mainstreams and failed to cope.

Cinders
The trouble is that your arguement is actually AAF ( arse about face)
There are problems with inclusion but you have presented inclusion as being the problem when it is not.

Inclusion fro many children is a great idea. BUT it needs money and committment. More importantly it needs a well behaved and structured enviroment.
And THAT is currently a problem in many schools where poor behaviour of NT children makes any kind of teaching problematic.

You have a two dimensional approach to a multi faceted problem and I ( ahem) suspect that it is people with your kind of mindset who are in charge of planning currently.

Needmorecoffeee has beautifully illustrated how her child's class are gaining huge learning experiences by working with her child. they are learning empathy, patience, co-operation, manners and consideration. THAT is worth ten minutes of any teachers class plan.
As for your blind child - why couldn't the other pupils help describe the picture as a mechanism by which its subject was then discussed and debated. Taking the blind child to one side and leavingthe others to fend for themseleves was surely your decision.

Martianbishop has written eloquently about the problems of inappropriate inclusion.Exactly the problems my son will face if he is offered mainstream. But it is the inappropriateness that is the problem - the poor support and the inadequate funding etc that is the fault - not the SN child. And often the child with SN will not cope because the NT children are too poorly behaved to allow for any disruption.

The badly behaved NT kids , the poor funding and the children forced into MS when they can't cope are the problem.... NOT The policy in principle

CINDERS. I am shocked! I should think your attitude towards inclusion is the very reason why perhaps it is not working in YOUR class.

And yes as a parent I would expect the TEACHER to play their part in teaching manners & that includes waiting patiently!

Teaching tolerance of each other & an understanding of difference is something that inclusion cad do BUT only if the teachers are leading by example.
And as a teacher I thought part of your job was to enable all the class to access the Curriculum that may mean adding blocks on a desk, is that really a big deal if it means that child can learn.

If moving the desk up & down is such a big issue - think of another way of making it work.

I know that my ds1 has gained so much from having children with sn(some severe) in his small village & I hope children in ds2's class gain from having him as one of their friends and I am thankful that they both have wonderful teachers who teach manners & RESPECT above all else.

sorry about the spelling etc typing in Anger
Should of read small village SCHOOL

seems to me that its the system. I took my older 3 out of school after my son couldn't cope. He has Aspergers but he is extremely bright. No SN school could have given him a decnt education, the m/s couldn't cope with his Aspergers. Because there wasn't enough funding, the class siz\es were too large. 30 kids is ridiculous, the behaviour of NT children was appalling and parents didn't support discipline or the school. Its the system that is broken.

A school with small classes, decent discipline, plenty of support staff etc etc would do better for all children. Then the majority with disabilities could be taught alongside their peers.
If you ever read 'Inclusion Now' there's wonderful examples of m/s schools where inclusion works well but its taken effort and planning and dedication. In some cases, the behaviour of the NT kids has improved as they have supported the disabled child and felt gorwn up and responsible.

The system is crap, not the childrem. I personally think schools fail non-disabled children too.

I agree with needmorecoffee the schools are failing all children due to the system of class-sizes, lack of support, lack of discipline all brought about by the government. Because of a combination of previous experience of two step-children (one with special needs) going through state m/s and my concerns about class sizes, discipline, respect etc I chose to send my DS to a private nursery attached to a private school. He's been there one term and are suggesting that he's autistic and that they won't accept him into the small-size reception classes because of his SN, even though we've offered to cover costs of additional support..Apparently he's so much of an embarrassment to the school they wouldn't allow him to take part in nursery sing-song even though he learned some of the actions. I'm currently awaiting an assessment in the new year to confirm whether he is autistic or not and if so to what degree. But I still don't feel ms is the answer if they're saying he's not coping in a class of 10 how could he cope in a class of 30 plus having checked into the local schools they don't fair well on support children with SN either. My stepdaughter was left to watch tv every day, even though the schools repeatedly denied it...and then she got in with a gang at her last school and started truanting...I don't want that for my DS

Since this thread has re-surfaced, can I just point out how very much my son and his friends (currently in yr 3) have benefitted from having a child with Downs syndrome in their class. I have seen how this has taught the children gentleness and tolerance and not being afraid of people that look or behave in a different way, and I am deeply grateful to the teachers and system which has made this possible; I only hope the little girl's mum feels the same.
Can I also add that being in a wheelchair does not necessarily mean that you would benefit more from a special school. Our special school is no doubt brilliant, but it caters mainly for children with learning difficulties, so I am uncertain that it would be the best learning environment for my highly academic daughter. Besides, it would mean taking her out of the local community, simply because of her chair. With a little imagination it is usually possible to adapt a classroom- and there is money available for inclusion work if one knows where to look for it.