Even good schools have behaviour issues

[CindersNeedsHelp]

Just been prompted by fellow MNer to rant about behaviour issues in schools (I was a teacher before becoming a SAHM) and the comment was made that a majority of kids do not listen and talk back at a school that is well respected, has top grades, etc.

Have read the state or private thread with interest and IMHO, inclusion is the main problem in state education and is the biggest education mistake the government has made in recent years.

I don't know if this has been commented on before now, but I wonder why so many parents take the BS line from the government that it is better for children with special needs to go into a mainstream school! It's just a cost cutting measure to close down schools, put all kids together, and save money on utilities, wages etc. OK, so a few specialist assistants are brought in to help, but so few teachers are conversant in sign language, brail etc. yet are expected to teach deaf and blind students in with other children. It just brings down the quality of education for everyone, even though most teachers try their very best!

Bring back all the different types of special schools so everyone can have an equal quality education, rather than lump everyone, regardless of their individual needs, into a room that is not designed to cope with them, with teachers not trained to deal with them, so everyone has the same (equally bad) experience of education!!!

If you take the social argument that kids need to be with their peers surely children who take the pi55 all the time, and those who have no concept of what life is like are hardly going to help them. Surely trained professionals providing tailed support will help children grow into confident adults able to cope with life. The other argument is that inclusion helps bring children together in an environment more representative of the real world, but ask any home educators, school is an artificial environment anyway. But I digress ...

Plus, not all schools are equal anyway, even though there are few special schools now, and league tables are another major mistake, but that is another issue although!!!

This was really just a rant, but any thoughts, anyone?

it isn't inclusion that is an issue for me. It is compulsory inclusion for children who MS will never suit that is the issue.

Completely agree with you, MB.

MB that is an issue and all reasonable parents/people know this

There is a huge need for good special schools that cater for a range of special needs and parents should be given a fair choice and also honest guidance

The op believes that inclusion is causing bad behaviour in ALL cases, that is insulting to every child out there with special needs

It isn't, it is caused by parents not teaching their delightful offspring to behave and show respect to the teachers, other staff and peers

Minority
I agree with you.The idea that my boys SN means that he is a problem regarding behaviour is nonsense.

But re schooling the issue is that parents should get support for their child in the school of their choice ! I choose special school and I shouldn't be under pressure to accept a lesser level of support becaause of cost.
my son will never work in mainstream workplace and the eductaion he needs is more about getting an understanding of the world around him. His being in a mainsteam class would not disrupt the other kids but he would not begin to be able to engage with it - it would upset and frustrate him.
I envy you your DD's school. I have to say I have had few peers whose schooling works so well - but it sounds lovely

I tend to have far more day to day issues with NT children who will not 'behave' than I do children with SEN who sometimes cannot 'behave'.

Like roisin, plain old fashioned rudeness and crap attitude of NT kids fuels around 80% of the behavioural issues that I see.

x-posted

Yikes. I really didn?t mean to offend people and I certainly don?t think the term SN equals badly behaved! No not at all, and I am sorry, sincerely, for making anyone think that was the case.

I was just saying that all people are individuals and deserve to be treated as such.

Everyone should be given an education that meets their needs I do believe that for some people this might mean that those in similar situations might benefit from sharing resources; for example having a brail library, which MS schools just don?t have. Needmorecoffee, I?m not talking about segregation, but adequate provision for all.

I truly believe that if the resources are in place, inclusion can work and can be a good thing. Every need is different and should be looked at on an individual basis. I do not lump everyone together in this. I am well aware that many, many needs can be met in MS schools. I think Martianbishop used the phrase compulsory inclusion, which is what I object to! I do think parents should be allowed to choose what school is best for their child; after all they know their child better than anyone. But more than that, the choices available should be good choices! I think the government are forcing people to make choices like the one Pagwatch has described, and I think this is wrong. Peachy I am sorry you thought I was saying parents are talking BS. I don?t. I think caring, responsible parents know all too well the BS coming from the government.

I know there are wider issues here, I simply said that I think inclusion is the main problem teachers/schools face, and I am entitled to that opinion!

I think inclusion contributes to increasing everyone?s poor behavior. Ordinarily well behaved kids, irrespective of their educational abilities, get bored and disruptive when they are waiting for a teacher. For example, when I was teaching, in my classroom the tables were of a set height. When I had a child with a wheelchair the whole class had to wait 5 mins at the start of a lesson for me to alter the table height for someone in a wheelchair because the school doesn?t have adequate resources and then had to pack away 5 mins early so I can reverse the process. It inevitably led to unrest and then behavioral problems. One group that comes to mind was a very bright year nine group. They were generally excellently behaved when occupied, but bright enough to cause such mischief when bored!!! It wasn?t the child who was disruptive at all, just the situation!

However I want to make it clear that I do recognize that there are many other very significant issues such as ?
Lack of parenting/parental support and/or parental discipline/guidance
Declining discipline tools in schools
Lack of varied and adequate choices for parents etc.

The issues you put at the bottom, and add class size, changing curriculums, the NC and lack of effective discipline would be the main problems in school.
Not inclusion. Your example of the child ina wheelchair, should that child be stuck in a ghetto or should the non-disabled children learn how to wait for 5 minutes without being disruptive? Good grief, when I was in school we learned to wait quietly. Maybe a bit of discipline.
If those kids can't learn to wait then when someone with a speech impairment takes time to say a sentence, or a wheelchair user is slow on the pavement, then non-disabled children who haven't been taught patience and courtesy will be rude pushy adults who treat disabled poeple like scum. As we get now.
My dd goes to a m/s nursery at the local school. The 4 year olds are more than capable of helping her, being considerate and waiting - to go out to play means she must be lifted outof her chair and strapped into her wheelchair. The teacher gets the class to wait patiently and two of the little ones help. That teacher has good class discipline and those kids are learning about differences and how tobehave around them. They are faster than the adults are learning how dd eye points and are not fazed by her CP noises which has every adult on the bus slightly horrified.
That Y9 group of yours needs a talking too. I have teenagers (y10, Y8), both extremely bright and both capable of waiting for someone slower without creating merry hell. Seems to me that in your example, its the non-disabled kids that cause trouble, not the child in a wheelchair.
RADAR and Scope and various other groups are able to come into your school to talk to the kids about inclusion and the issues around it plus how sometimes one has to wait pateintly. Might be worth your school getting them in.

Cinders I agree with u. Some SN children will do very well in mainstream schools with extra classroom assistance. Some children though will do better in a special school with the extra facility's to help them. I think sometimes politics get in the way of thinking what is in the best interest of the child.

The most important years of a childs life when all the framework is set down is the first 2 years, at this age they learn mainly thru' example. if the parents r seen to be respectful of people irrespective of their differences, good manners and patience then the children will carry this thru' into the clasroom and adulthood. Unfortunately alot of parenting doesn't teach this, these children will then have problems in behaving in school including considering the special needs of SN children.

NMC- excellent post

I haven't read the whole thread but surely it is children with EBD who tend to be the most disruptive and challenging, not children with special needs?

Children with EBD are listed on our SEN regester. In fact, quite a few of the children with EBD end up getting statements because their behavior can be so challenging to the staff, and this can have a vast knock on effect to the rest of the classes

Sorry, I thought OP was referring to children with Special Needs ie disabilities rather than children with SEN .

sorry, I may have misread things too!

and, of course we do get children with ebd and a dx of something else

Inclusion works when the school/teacher is well supported - in practical matters and professionally. When a child with SEN arrives with no support is when problems can occur.
Poor behaviour in schools is not really linked to inclusion. It's a complicated issue that has many factors such as the management of the school, the background of the children and the attitude of parents.
And the best teachers and disciplinarians will struggle when faced with challenging behaviour.

that is true ali, but I have seen children have 32.5 hours to 1 to 1 support and they still cannot cope with MS. for some children MS will never work out

For a lot of us whose children have milder special needs, there just aren't suitable "special schools" unless you can afford to go private .

MB, Yes! Meant to include that for some it's just not appropriate. Had a similar experience and also tried part-time with 1-2-1 and it all still went horribly wrong. And I do mean horribly!!

NMC ? that?s my point - children today don?t know how to wait for 5 minutes without being disruptive and I did say ?It wasn?t the child who was disruptive at all?.

But I still think that inclusion as it is doesn?t always help. There are just some people that MS is just not appropriate for.

And I never said any child should be stuck in a ghetto (and resent the fact that you are putting those words into my mouth). A ghetto, FFS? That is antiquated and cruel. We are not in Nazi Germany and I am not a fascist!!!

I do stand by my point, if I/my school don?t/doesn?t have the resources to provide for a child, perhaps they would be better served elsewhere. In a decent school more suited to their needs. Why is that such a bad thing???

I really don?t understand why getting a poor educational experience that is exactly the same as everyone else is somehow preferable to getting a quality education designed to suit a person?s needs! NMC, answer me that!!!

And, is it my job as a teacher to teach children patience and courtesy? If so, when I am supposed to do that? When I have my head under the table pulling table-leg blocks off (not something I thought I?d be doing as a teacher, TBH)? Or when I am spending 50% of my lesson time with one blind child to talk them through a picture in front of him leaving the other 29 children to get on by themselves?

And just why should the majority of children have to wait patiently for one other child in their lesson time? Don?t they deserve an education? Yes people with SN should be treated fairly and equally, but not at the cost of other children. It?s PC gone mad! Make sure the minorities are well treated and sod everyone else!!!

(And FYI there are currently two people in my family with severe disabilities, one in a wheelchair, and one shortly to be. Plus my grandfather, before he passed away, was wheelchair bound and we as kids would go to his day centre and play with all the other people there, irrespective of disability.)

CindersNeedHelp - I am rather shocked at some of the statements in your last post. I hope your views are not representative of those of the majority of teachers.

What has shocked you?

"And just why should the majority of children have to wait patiently for one other child in their lesson time? Don?t they deserve an education? Yes people with SN should be treated fairly and equally, but not at the cost of other children. It?s PC gone mad! Make sure the minorities are well treated and sod everyone else!!!"

I am quite shocked by these sentiments.

Why?

What's wrong with me saying "people with SN should be treated fairly and equally"?