Q&A with Vicky Ford MP, Children's Minister, about return to school for all children

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We’re pleased to announce a Q&A with Vicky Ford, Conservative MP for Chelmsford and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children and Families, about next week’s return to school in England for those children who’ve been learning at home during lockdown.

If you have any questions about how children can catch up with lost learning, how exam results will be approached, what the situation is like for children with SEN and additional needs, how the testing regimen will work, and what safety measures will be expected, now’s your chance to ask.

This is a non-live Q&A: we’ll be collecting your questions until midday on Thursday March 4, and Vicky’s answers will be posted up on this thread on Friday March 5.

As always, please remember our guidelines - please keep it civil, and if one topic is dominating a thread, we might request that people don't continue to post what's effectively the same question or point. Rest assured we will ALWAYS let the guest know that it's an area of concern to multiple users and will encourage them to engage with those questions.

And with that it’s over to you for your questions.

Thanks
MNHQ

Will you protect the current year 5's from the pressures of SATs in year 6? These children were not invited back in the summer term last year so missed the end of Year 4 and now this point of Year 5. If SATs will still happen then they will be pushed horribly so as schools will want good data.

We hear much about the mental health of students during lockdown and how it is really important to 'get back to school'. Clearly the impact has been massive in many cases. However, there are many, many children who have found learning from home to be much less stressful than learning in the classroom (and more productive as there are fewer interruptions). Will there be any consideration and research into how we can make our schools less stressful for children and how we can integrate some online learning on a permanent basis?

The British Society of Psychologists recently said they feared for young people's mental health because of the dangers of the 'catch up' narrative and that the words 'catch up' were potentially very damaging.

What is your government going to do to avoid relentless pressure on young people, especially in examination years? How will you aim to prevent their-and their teachers-' mental health from imploding? How is your government working with and listening to Sir Kevan Collins? I am wary of a soundbite culture.

On 'catching up' can you explain what children under 7 have to 'catch up' with given that in much of the world they wouldn't have yet reached compulsory school age? Presumably for years R-Y2 adjusting expectations for a while would be a better approach than forcing 'catch up'.

The evidence is that children read and write just as quickly when they start learning these skills a couple of years later - it's just less like pulling teeth for the poor souls who are not ready.

For children with SEN, especially Speech and Language needs, can you think creatively about "catch up" support and fund evidence based inteventions to boost group vocabulary, narrative, phonological awareness. And fund individual or small group therapy in school by specialist speech and language therapists - so these vulnerable children can catch up with the vital skills that underpin learning.

Thank you for coming Vicky.

Please can you ensure that the messages coming from govt bodies are more nuanced? It is very unhelpful to refer to all

How can you possibly claim to advocate for children when you consistently voted against feeding the poorest and most vulnerable in society at a time of unprecedented hardship?

School staff should be vaccinated ASAP. They are the only job where people are expected to go in to school rooms with large numbers of people and no ppe. If staff become ill, it causes problems for schools and pupils.

Make ppe mandatory for all adults in schools. The guidance is so open to interpretation, so different headteachers are doing their own thing and not always keeping staff safe.

Please prioritise the well-being of all children rather than 'catch up'. All we have heard today from child's teacher is about the testing they will be having and extra maths and English lessons when they return. I want to hear about how they will be ensuring social opportunities and well-being of all children.

Hello

Thank you so much for all your questions - Vicky Ford will be coming on soon to post up the answers. She'll respond to as much as she possibly can but we just wanted to flag that of course this is a busy week for her (as we're sure it is for lots of you too) so we only have a limited amount of her time - so please bear with us if she doesn't get through every single question here.

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all the questions so far and I am looking forward to answering them.

Vicky

[quote AllAboveAverage]Thank you for coming Vicky.

Please can you ensure that the messages coming from govt bodies are more nuanced? It is very unhelpful to refer to all

@Hollyhead

Why didn’t the governments hone schooling policy put the needs of working parents first? Particularly for primary aged children. For 9 weeks I’ve worked a 5am-9pm day whilst trying (often failing) to fit in two sets of primary homeschooling. Children that age can’t learn independently. Why weren’t we just issued with a national workbook to just keep everyone ticking over? Instead I’ve been wracked with guilt trying to deliver bullshit RE/PE/Music as well as all the essentials. It is a catastrophic failure and I feel totally violated and upset that my children are now disadvantaged. Honestly, the government could have teamed up with CGP and issued a homelearning workbook, freed teachers to be in better contact and made life much easier for working parents. I feel so bitter about the whole situation. And don’t get my started on the fact that stay at home parents of under 5s have still be allowed to use nurseries.

Hi @Hollyhead,

I’m sorry to hear this has been your experience. I know that there are people in similar situations across the country who have been putting all their effort into juggling work and home schooling, and I know how difficult that has been at times.

I wouldn’t want anyone who has been trying their best to feel that they have let down or disadvantaged their children. Particularly at primary school age they are resilient and the vast majority will quickly catch back up on whatever they might have lost. Our research shows on average children are just a small number of months behind where they would usually be, and a primary school age child has a long time in education to catch back up on that.

What we have done is make sure schools have all been offering a consistent minimum level of remote education, and I hope you’ll agree that was a good thing in helping make sure all children were able to keep up with their education during the pandemic.

I hope you, like me and my colleagues, will welcome the news that all children are returning to schools next week, and please don’t feel you’ve been letting anyone down by not being able to dedicate every hour to home learning over recent weeks.

Vicky

@PurpleWh1teGreen

I'm concerned about the extracurricular activities that children have missed out on as well as academic work.

How is the government planning to support music, sport and arts activities to make sure that they can and do take place safely and are not de-prioritised behind core academic learning?

Thank you

Hi @PurpleWh1teGreen,

These are really important points and let me reassure you they haven’t been forgotten.

Firstly they’re a core part of our ‘summer schools’ that we’re funding and schools can choose to put on this summer based on pupils’ needs. We absolutely expect – and will be advising schools – to consider exactly these sorts of issues in deciding what provision they want to make available.

Summer schools will run alongside wider support funded through our Holiday Activities and Food Programme across the country. The clubs will offer engaging and enriching activities such as arts, sports, drama and music, and which provide opportunities to develop or consolidate skills or knowledge. Clubs must also provide healthy free meals, nutritional education and physical activities on a daily basis.

Secondly I know this is a hugely important point to Sir Kevan Collins, who the government recently appointed as Education Recovery Commissioner. He is looking at the moment at what the longer term support package should be to help children recover from the impact of the pandemic, which we know will take years, not months. So I can’t predict exactly what he’ll report back and say, but I know it will be top of his agenda.

Vicky

@Leafdelta

Hello

What do you think young school-age children have missed out on as a result of the lockdown?

If there is anything lacking ... do you think this is resolved by extra lesson time or is there a need to for something else?

Thank you

Hi @Leafdelta and @BrightonBabe88,

I think there’s a huge range of experiences children and young people will have had from the pandemic – and as you say, we know it will have exacerbated the gap between more and less disadvantaged children. Even things like geography of course will have played a part with higher case rates and potentially more school missed in certain areas of the country compared to others.

We do know that on average the ‘academic’ learning loss hasn’t been huge – a few months across reading and maths. But we also know children may have missed out on wider extra-curricular and social development.

I’m really proud of the package we have so far - £1.7 billion in total – going on a wide range of interventions, from extra money direct to schools to use how they see best, through to targeted one-to-one tutoring for the children that need the most support to catch up, and specific programmes targeting early language development. This is on top of the record levels of funding that is now going into school.

But we know there will be more to do over the course of the next months and years, and that’s why the government recently appointed Sir Kevan Collins as Education Recovery Commissioner to look at all these issues and advise on what more might need to be done.

Vicky

@Twilightstarbright

What will be done to help EYFS age children who have fallen behind? How will they be identified? Similar question to *@Useruseruserusee* I've got a child starting school in September but hasn't been assessed in person for speech and language issues, and it's unlikely they are going to catch up with all referrals before he starts school, let alone treatment.

Are you going to fund extracurricular activities as part of helping children catch up? They can add greatly to a child's learning despite not being in the traditional classroom environment.

Hi @Twilightstarbright,

The good news is that we have kept Early Years settings open to support the youngest children during this lockdown. The government is funding a specific early language development programme, which over 40 percent of schools have already signed up to. This is helping those children in Reception classes who need extra support with language skills. We’ve just extended the funding for it by a further £18 million so it can run into next year.

We know many of our youngest children are resilient and will be able to catch up, but some will need extra support and I’m pleased that it will be available.

There’s some more information here about the programme from the charity EEF who run it on our behalf:

educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/covid-19-resources/neli/

In response to yourself and @Useruseruserusee

I’m sorry to hear you’re having trouble with your referrals – I know it can sometimes feel more difficult than it needs to be to navigate these types of issues, and especially during the pandemic I know it won’t have been easy for you. Our early language development programme is specifically there to help Reception aged children who need extra support with communication skills. Therapists, like speech and language therapists have been able to be in schools since September.

Our Holiday Activities and Food programme is going live all over the country this summer and will provide fun and enriching activities for disadvantaged school-aged children in the summer holidays.

Vicky

Thanks Vicky

My questions on SEND seems to not be answered yet? I hope that you are still around and will be able to comment on that. SEND being a huge but cinderella group, whose parents are tired of being overlooked.

@Hollyhead

On 'catching up' can you explain what children under 7 have to 'catch up' with given that in much of the world they wouldn't have yet reached compulsory school age? Presumably for years R-Y2 adjusting expectations for a while would be a better approach than forcing 'catch up'.

The evidence is that children read and write just as quickly when they start learning these skills a couple of years later - it's just less like pulling teeth for the poor souls who are not ready.

Hi @Hollyhead,

I think you’re absolutely right – most primary children will have suffered a small amount of academic learning loss, but they are likely to be resilient, and overall I’m confident that over the remaining time they have in education they’ll be able to make that up.

It's interesting you talk about the word ‘catch up’ – we’ve also been trying to use the words ‘education recovery’ to try and capture some of the broader issues around extra-curricular and social development that we want to make sure we’re helping children and young people with too.

But overall I would say please don’t worry - nobody’s going to be forcing anyone into summer schools or for extra tutoring if it isn’t wanted or needed – we just want to make sure it’s there for those who do need and want it.

Vicky

@ViolaDaviesFanClub

Hello Vicky.

I can't wait for my kids to go back to school - so first up thank you for opening them again. But I'm worried about the teachers (who also have their own kids!) - why could we not vaccinate them first ahead of healthy people who are working from home?

My 29 year old healthy friend was vaccinated last week - meanwhile teachers will be literally risking their lives and the lives of those around them when they go back to school. I hate thinking that my kids may put them in danger inadvertently.

And I'm sorry but saying 'it's easier to do it this way' like I've heard on the news just makes people feel treated like idiots. It's clearly quite straightforward to priorities teachers as a group in administering the vaccines - and it's quite clear that they will be in one of the most high-risk jobs from next week.

So please could we vaccinate teachers next?

Thanks so much.

Hello to everyone who’s asked about teachers getting vaccinated - this includes @ViolaDaviesFanClub, @somuchcoffeeneeded, @mumsneedwine, @PeppermintTea2021 and @Hugepeppapigfan

I know how important this issue is and I want to reassure you as best I possibly can.

Firstly – there’s lots of data about how much teachers are or aren’t at risk compared to other professions. What the majority of the data points to is that teachers are at no higher risk than other professions where most of the time you can’t work from home.

Some of the most reliable data, based on specific studies in schools, shows that teachers might actually be lower risk than the general population, likely thanks to the protective measures in place in education.

Of course there is always going to be some risk – and I am hugely grateful to the teachers and everyone working in education who goes above and beyond every day to make sure children have continued to get the education and care they have needed throughout the pandemic.

In terms of vaccinations, the expert committee that advises on these issues, the JCVI, has said that the most effective way of protecting the most people is continuing to vaccinate people in age order. They say that even in the under 50s it is still age that is the most important factor in predicting how much risk someone is at – more than where they work or any other factor. Targeting particular workforces would be more complex to deliver and would slow down the vaccine programme, leaving some more vulnerable people at higher risk unvaccinated for longer.

I know it’s not necessarily the answer lots of people want to hear, but as government we’re following this advice, precisely because we want as many people as possible who are the most at risk to be protected.

Teachers who are over 50 or clinically vulnerable or caring for someone else who is clinically vulnerable will of course be vaccinated in the first phase of the vaccine program, and this will be tens of thousands of teachers and staff. The plan is to have all adults vaccinated by July which is well ahead of any other large country.

Vicky

@godeeva

Minister:

1. Has the Secretary of State for education/dept of Education given any thought to the educational, physical, emotional and mental needs of children who are required to shield at home as a result of Covid 19?
2. If so, why have they failed to raise this issue with teaching unions and the public?
3. If so, please provide detail and confirm when the written plans will be published.
4. If not, will you concede that it is a shockingly unacceptable omission which needs to be immediately rectified?
5. If not, will you commit to setting out a roadmap within 24 hours detailing how this inequality will be rectified/ what steps are to be taken to address this issue, providing timescales for same?

Hello to everyone such as @godeeva, @NuttyinNotts and @MyDcAreMarvel who’s asked about shielding parents whose children are returning to school,

I know this is an emotional issue and everyone will be in their own specific situation with their own considerations of how the virus has affected them and their lives.

Our over-riding priority has consistently been how we can look after the best interests of children. And we know that being in school is the best place, not just for children’s education, but for their mental health, wider development and wellbeing.

And we know that at times that can feel like it conflicts with the need to protect yourself and your family from the virus.

I would reassure everyone that we are doing everything possible when schools return next week to put safety measures in place, including asking secondary school students to wear face masks where social distancing can’t be maintained. This is on top of all the measures that were previously in place, including good ventilation in classrooms, because we know that ventilation is one of the best ways of moving the virus out of enclosed spaces.

Testing is also available twice weekly for anyone without symptoms working in or involved with education, apart from primary school children. That means all staff, year 7 children and above, and families of all children no matter their age, as an extra reassurance that even where someone has the virus without symptoms we are able to spot it, and have that person isolate, breaking the chains of transmission and help keep the virus out of our schools and colleges.

Anyone who still has concerns I would really encourage to speak to your school. They’ll be able to tell you in even more detail about the specific measures they’re taking to keep everyone safe – and hopefully help you feel confident about your child going back. I know ultimately everyone will want the same, the best for every child.

Vicky

@DonLewis

Will schools be sending home close contacts of positive cases or closing whole bubbles on the return to school?

There was a shift in my sons secondary school from whole bubbles to close contacts only being sent home in the event of a positive case and I was told this was in line with DfE advice. Which is fine, until you realise that they weren't contact tracing those students who travel by bus. (so, sit next to the positive case on the bus, no isolation, sit next to the same positive case in class and need to isolate).

Hi @DonLewis,

You’re right – we do ask schools not to automatically send whole bubbles home if it’s possible to be sure that only certain children within those bubbles have actually come into close contact.

We have separate guidance for public transport, and dedicated home to school transport, so it’s hard to comment on your specific case. We do always ask that face coverings are worn where appropriate on any transport, so it may be a factor that the additional safety measure of face coverings was in place.

But of course dealing with the details of these issues will have been new to your school as they have been to all of us, so it’s worth speaking to them if you do continue to have concerns.

Vicky

@ltichbon

Will you protect the current year 5's from the pressures of SATs in year 6? These children were not invited back in the summer term last year so missed the end of Year 4 and now this point of Year 5. If SATs will still happen then they will be pushed horribly so as schools will want good data.

Hi @ltichbon,

We do recognise that pupils will have experienced lost time in education, and as well as all the recovery measures we are putting in place, we are also considering the implications for both primary assessments and accountability in 2021/22.

Good assessment can play an important part in supporting schools to understand current pupil attainment and to plan effective teaching to enable them to catch up where necessary.

Nevertheless, schools should support a culture of wellbeing amongst staff and pupils. While assessment is a fundamental part of a child’s education, it is not meant to cause them stress or anxiety and we trust schools to approach assessments appropriately.

While we would always expect schools to encourage and support pupils to do their best, we do not recommend excessive preparation time for assessment in any year, and certainly not at the expense of pupils’ wellbeing.

We will confirm full details of the arrangements for primary assessment and accountability in 2021/22 as soon as we can.
Vicky

@noblegiraffe

It’s now two months since exams were cancelled and Y11 and Y13 students still do not know how they are going to be assessed as the Ofqual announcement passed the buck to exam boards and schools to come up with their own approaches.

Why was there no back-up plan already in place for the eventuality that exams had to be cancelled again (as they indeed were), and why was apparently no consideration given to the mental health of teens regarding the impact of this announcement with no plan?

How will you protect teachers and schools from the inevitable fallout in the summer when results are found to be inconsistent/inflated compared to previous years due to the lack of a national approach or leadership from the DfE on this?

In addition, what plans are being put in place now to ensure that exams next year happen in a fair and reliable fashion, and when will the details of these be published so that current Y10 and Y12 can continue their courses confident in how they will be assessed and that the impact of the pandemic will be taken into account?

Thank you.

Hello @noblegiraffe,

The Government recognises how important these issues are for families and for young people. What we would much rather be doing is holding exams, because they are the best form of assessment, but the pandemic means it simply would not be fair for us to do so.

The department has worked really closely with Ofqual and with organisations that represent teachers, schools and colleges, to come up with the fairest possible solution for awarding grades to young people. Above all else, what matters is ensuring the hard work and ability of young people is recognised and they are not held back from moving onto their stage – that's what these plans will do.

On your specific questions, I’m afraid I must disagree. The Government and Ofqual have jointly set out full and detailed plans on how students will be awarded qualifications this summer, with teachers determining those grades supported by extensive guidance. You are right that that guidance will follow from exam boards over the coming weeks.

These plans have been in train for some time – and indeed before we had to make the decision to cancel exams – and it’s right that we then took the time to consult with parents, students and the sector to make sure we got it right.

As I mentioned above, teachers will have detailed guidance and training from exam boards to support them in determining grades, and will carry out their own internal reviews to ensure errors are not made. Exam boards will also carry out their own checks.

For current year 10 and 12 students, we know extended school closures for most pupils have had a significant impact on their education, and we have appointed the brilliant Sir Kevan Collins to oversee recovery work for these young people. We’re also investing £1.7bn to help young people recover that learning, which you will see in things like tutoring and summer schools. As I said right at the start of this answer, we know how important these issues are for families and young people and you can be assured that once again we will do absolutely everything possible to make sure students are treated fairly next year.

Vicky

@Cuddling57

Children in exam years have been very stressed out and not learnt at home as well as they do when in school. Are the grades they will be given 'working at grades'? Surely they will ALL have been disadvantaged to normal years so will ALL be behind? How will the grading make up for that? For example a GCSE child currently scoring a 3 in maths could have easily scored a 4 if they had full face to face teaching. The difference between a grade 3 and 4 is another whole year of school as they have to get a grade 4 to pass. Is this fair on them? Or are you advising teachers to make them up?

Hi @Cuddling57

These are really important questions, and an issue I can address for you directly.

One of the key elements of the process for awarding grades is that teachers should only assess students on what they have been taught – not on what they might have missed.

So if, for example, a student has not been taught a specific topic in history, their knowledge in that subject will not be taken into account in the grade they are awarded. We think this is the fairest possible way of awarding grades in the circumstances.

We trust teachers to know whether students have covered sufficient content to allow progression to the next stage of their education, and head teachers will have to confirm this too, to make sure we aren’t setting young people up for challenges in the next stage of their education or training.

There may be instances where students have not covered sufficient curriculum content to progress. In these instances centres should discuss with students what alternative options are most appropriate.

The DfE has appointed an Education Recovery Commissioner, Sir Kevan Collins, who will lead the way on longer-term engagement work with teachers, school and college leaders, educational charities and families to review how evidence-based interventions can be used to address the impact the pandemic has had on learning.

Vicky

@KatzeDatze

We hear much about the mental health of students during lockdown and how it is really important to 'get back to school'. Clearly the impact has been massive in many cases. However, there are many, many children who have found learning from home to be much less stressful than learning in the classroom (and more productive as there are fewer interruptions). Will there be any consideration and research into how we can make our schools less stressful for children and how we can integrate some online learning on a permanent basis?

Hello @KatzeDatze

It is only natural that some children and young people may still be feeling anxious about returning to school, especially those who have been away from the classroom for so long. We know that while learning at home has been difficult for some pupils, others may have found it calmer and less distracting.

School is ultimately the best place for children and young people to be so that they can be in the classroom with their classmates and teachers through face-to-face learning. But we would encourage schools to discuss with their parents about any concerns they may have about pupils returning to face-to-face education.

Sir Kevan Collins has recently been appointed as Education Recovery Commissioner and he will be looking into the ways in which we can support pupils in the longer term, and as part of that he will be engaging with young people, families and teachers to get their views on how support can be developed beyond the immediate-term help that is currently in place.

Vicky

@ChloeDecker

Hello Vicky,

The school I work at suffered terribly last term with CAMHS refusing to see pupils face to face (fine for school staff obviously) and that has caused lasting damage to many of our pupils.

Now that CAMHS employees have been vaccinated (as opposed to teachers), what will be done about their continued refusal to see children in person?

Hi @ChloeDecker, @DreamingofBrie and @NotDonna

Bringing you all together here, as your questions were focused on similar issues.

Children and Adolescent Mental Health Services are absolutely vital during this turbulent time and we are absolutely committed to ensuring that mental health support for our children and young people is a priority.

NHS mental health services have remained open throughout the pandemic, and have deployed digital tools to enable them to connect with people and provide ongoing support. All NHS Mental Health Trusts have provided 24/7 open access telephone lines to support people of all ages. We have also provided £9 million funding to mental health charities – including Mind, the Samaritans, Young Minds, and Bipolar UK to help them adapt, expand, and reach those who are most vulnerable.

I am sorry to hear that you’ve been affected by waiting times for CAMHS. The NHS will receive around an additional £500 million this year, to address waiting times for mental health services, so we can make sure that more people the mental health support they need, and invest in the NHS workforce.

But I want to assure you, we are committed to our joint green paper delivery programme with the Department for Health and Social Care and NHS England, including introducing new mental health support teams for all schools and colleges, providing training for senior mental health leads in schools and colleges, and testing approaches to faster access to NHS specialist support. Just today we have announced that we’re increasing the number of these mental health support teams from 59 to around 400 by April 2023 to support nearly three million children,

On that note of support for schools, our new Mental Health in Education Action Group will look at how we best support children and young people’s mental wellbeing as they return to education settings and our Wellbeing for Education Return programme is facilitating local expert support for education staff to respond to the emotional and mental health pressures some children and young people may be feeling as a result of COVID-19.

Vicky