Do private schools favour state school applicants for 11+ (SW London)?

[karmi2010]

Just wanted to get opinions/experience really... sorry for the long post

DD is in state primary at the moment and not getting much education as I am a single mum working full time from home in a quite demanding and time consuming role. We are in a grammar area my I don't think DD will be a good fit for the grammar (she is smart but more into sports/drama/arts than academics). I am also strongly into co-ed schools.

So my plan was for her to get into co-ed private schools at 11+ -Alleyns (long shot), Caterham, Kingston Grammar, Freemens or possibly Epsom/St Johns (not sure as a bit too expensive).

Having done homeschooling for the last year (on and off) now, I realise that I will struggle to properly tutor myself or even insist on doing the homework set by the tutor ((

So keep thinking now whether I should move DD to a nearby not selective prep school?

I can afford it (but only just), and hopefully they will do the 11+ prep for me and she will get slightly more all round education and more sport/music/art but it will be much less convenient to commute there and I will be spending the money that I could otherwise save for the secondary school in case she only gets into the more expensive Epsom College/St John's and I need to top up what I can afford from my salary monthly...

With my job, when I am back in the office DD will be at school and afterschool until 6.30pm every day, so realistically we won't be able to do much 11+ prep outside school and DD won't be able to compete properly with the prep school candidates, but I read somewhere that private school consider prep and state school candidates separately and state schools need less marks to achive on exams to get offers (in which case moving DD to a non-selective ordinary prep school won't do her any favour as she will be compared against the kids from selective academic preps, and staying in her state school is a better strategy as she will be compared against kids from similar state schools)?

Anyone has any views? Thanks very much!

I’ve never heard this before but doesn’t mean it’s not true. There tends to be more state kids apply for 11+ places as preps traditionally go till 13 for boys, but this is becoming less popular as time goes on.
From my experience, the schools just want the kids that are scoring the highest in the exams and impressing at interview - but I could be wrong.
Ultimately the prep school does just that - from year 5 onwards the kids are doing VR/NVR , English and maths test papers and online assessments most weeks and they get interview practise too. However, having just done the 11+ process, pretty much every one at my child’s prep also had a tutor as well so this may not solve all your problems either.
The other thing is that it’s quite hard to gauge how bright a state school child is. Prep schools use CAT tests which are also used by most private secondaries to gauge intelligence. If 100 is the national average (including all children) the bottom 10% at my child’s school are still scoring 110+ and this would be considered a bottom third score at a private SW London prep - but still way ahead the national average. Top set kids are scoring 125-135! If you are interested to find your score, then you could try her on boffa or atom - both of which do a monthly subscription.
Also you have picked schools which are really at the top of the league tables so your daughter would be going up against top set/top middle set prep school children. St John’s and Epsom are eye wateringly expensive too- have you looked at other schools where bright kids excel but don’t come with those price tags? Surbiton for instance? It’s also possible to sit for in year places at schools where secondary schools have a prep attached and If you went down this route, you wouldn’t have to tutor either - just a thought.

Ultimately there are always kids that will get in to a school as they are naturally bright whether they come from state or not, but I do think it’s tougher for kids coming from the state sector.

Thank you very much After8itsgrownuptime! That was what I thought ...

My eldest is in Yr7 at a private school. We thought he was pretty bright but we tutored him for a year before the tests. @After8itsgrownuptime is right in saying it was impossible to know where he sat in terms of what was expected but the tutor was confident.

We applied to Alleyn's as well as a couple of others. He was assessed for academic scholarship at the school he now attends (our preferred choice) but he didn't even get an interview at Alleyn's so the standards wanted at each school can be very different! Conversely, a friend's child is at a private prep and they also wanted the school we are at (pre-testing for 13+) but didn't even get an interview. They've ended up at another very good school but not ultimately what they wanted.

I think you need to know your kid tbh and how much they are willing to do - and really look at the schools carefully. Prep school is no guarantee but you will definitely need something beyond state school. My second child is currently working towards 11+ next year and his state primary is nowhere near getting him to the right level so the tutor is back!

Thank you Floralai!!

I think in your position I would swallow my feelings about Co-ed v single sex and look at Sutton High. If it helps, you can study the sort of stuff teenage boys typically watch and message to eachother.

I wouldn't bother moving to prep as you are only going to have to tutor anyway.

Them being in school for long days doesn't make any difference - ours was and we committed to 5 hours on a Saturday and an hour in the evenings in Year 5. And I think commitment is the word - I think you go all in for grammars and selective schools or you go halfway for schools like Sutton High or you dont do anything at all and accept your state school allocation - which could be good depending on where you are exactly.

I'll echo much of what After8 wrote. Our prep had essentially completed the government Year 6 syllabus in both English and Math by end of the first term of Year 5. That left a year to bring the bottom kids up to scratch, and reinforce and practice for everybody. Weekly sample exams for the second half of Year 5 and first half-term of Year 6, rotating between English, Math and NVR/VR. A half dozen sample exams sent home to be done over the summer before Year 6. Full exams weekly in class for the second half-term of Year 6 under exam conditions. 15 minutes of interview practice every couple of weeks through the first term of Year 6. And, of course, advice on target, reach, and safety schools.

Furthermore, our head teacher claimed that they were informed before interviews were announced and that, if a child had done unexpectedly badly in an exam, they could often convince the school to grant an interview anyway. Not a guaranteed place, but sometimes a second chance to make up for a bad day.

Clearly, you won't get all of that at a state school. However, the senior schools do understand this! They make allowances for the fact that, although anything on the state Year 6 syllabus is fair game on the exam, most state schools won't have covered all the material by January of Year 6, and that applicants from those schools won't have had as much practice with the material. Similarly, senior schools make allowances for the fact that applicants from state schools won't have had as much practice with the exam formats and techniques as applicants from prep schools. Some people have claimed that senior schools allocate separate numbers of places for state and prep applicants and run entirely separate lists. I don't know if they go that far, but I am quite certain that they do practice a form of contextual admissions.

That said, I'll also echo something else After8 wrote. The children from our prep who got places at the most sought after schools were, with very few exceptions, also the children who did the most work outside of school.

Thank you Christopher and ProudDad!

The private schools you are targeting are quite spread out - will you move? If not then do consider the journey
Lots of evidence that girls do better at single sex schools so don't dismiss them
I think Epsom has Saturday school?

Up to 80% of the kids in the prep schools will be externally tutored. It's not just the prep school's input that gets them into the private secondary schools

Thank you AveEldon! These are the school reachable from us within 25-50mins, there are no other co-ed top schools close by unfortunately. And I do feel very strongly against single sex schools so at them moment still hoping we can avoid them...

I would just add it might well be worth applying for a bursary to help with finances. Upper limits on income and assets are surprisingly high in a lot of independent secondary schools. Applying for a bursary will not influence the chance of an offer.

I can't speak for all the schools but Alleyns does try to accept half of the 11+ intake from state schools and also roughly keep the intake half boys and half girls. I don't know how rigid they are but it appears that they assess state pupils mostly against each other as well as girls against girls iyswim.

With that said, there very well may be many more state school applicants than prepschool ones so the relative competition may not be favourable or result in a different admission standard.

If she isn't that into academics and you are more looking for better art and sport than you can get in your local comp it might be worth saving all the stress and sending her some place where the entrance requirements don't require years of tutoring but still send the children to Russel Group universities like St Dunstans. Equally you could use the money and buy into the Charter or the new Charter East Dulwich catchments (both are co-ed) and the The Charter (in North Dulwich) send most of its kids to Russel Group universities as well as multiple pupils to Oxbridge.

Thank you so much, SouthLondonMommy! This is extremely helpful, I will look into relocating to a good comp as well

Just been through 11+. I don't think they do. In fact, some of registrars will tell you that state school children do not need any preparation for ISEB. I found out later that to be a bit of misleading statement. Ignore that. As a state school child, your child will need to know Y6 and part of Y7 curriculum in math. Any state school child will need to double their efforts if they want to get a realistic chance. Quick creative writing has to be to the highest standard ( almost author level, not ten years old top of the class level) and will be extremely important, don't just focus on math. My DS, super bright, quick learner, can do advanced math puzzles for fun, was invited to Guardian newspaper workshop as one of the young writers in Y5 , pre COVID. I thought he was doing really well academically. He was encouraged to apply to top London indies. No professional tutoring ( big mistake ), printed past papers myself from top indies and he was getting 90% correct answers. That gave me false sense of security. We kept practicing the different past papers from all the top indies for an hour daily and thought we were doing enough. Found out in Oct last year that Atom might help and we done Atom 4 weeks prior iseb exams . His scores in Atom were around 135 - 142. Those are the highest scores at Atom. The bottom line, he barely got through to interview stage at only one of the top indies. Few of them rejected him outright, after iseb. I have requested the feedback from all the schools we applied to, 4 (iseb ones), his results were in fourth quartile and it was still not enough to be considered. He clearly wasn't compared against other state children, he was compared against general pool. So think 11+ as "The hunger games " level of competition, it's not for faint hearted. The above is my personal experience and represents my personal views. Hope that helps.

Hi @WineAndMassage, could I ask which 4 independents you applied to? I have DS who will be giving 11+ this year - similar scores and bright with support of prep school, but I have my doubts about the actual exam performance too. Will be useful to know which independents may be challenging.

OP Karmi2010 - I would vouch for prep experience, which gives my children many more opportunities in music, drama and sports. I just wish I had thought of getting them into an all through independent/feeder school so I could avoid 11+ stress if possible! Could also suggest Ewell Castle (all through till A levels) and Kingswood School (till GCSE) around the Epsom area, Sutton High is great if you do decide to go down single-sex route. Other Preps that go till Year 6 and would recommend are Aberdour School and Banstead Prep. My kids at Banstead Prep and I am very happy with the school, facilities, staff, ethos and support during lockdown. Some 11+ prep kicking off for Yr 5 now and I know they will help prep for interviews, but don't know if that will be enough.

You should definitely look to apply for bursaries.

Teaandbook, I pm -ed you with all the info.

WineAndMassage, TeaandBook - thank you very much, this is very helpful!!

I’d love to move DD to a Prep school but now sure now if I can afford it, having done some more thinking on that...

Latymer Upper certainly seem to have different exam performance requirements for state school vs prep school candidates. I don't think it is true for most secondary schools, but some do treat those two applicant groups separately.

I work in independent admissions and I think it's highly unlikely that there is any favouring of state school pupils or any different treatment at all. The senior schools will be looking for children who will thrive at their particular school.

The benefit of a private prep goes beyond the overt prep for 11+, including covering the curriculum faster, in smaller groups and not narrowing the curriculum so DCs still participate in the 'fun' of school. My own DCs did no additional prep, no tutoring and kept up all of their co-curricular clubs in the first two terms of Y6 (very unusual in our cohort I might add) and I'm so thankful that they got to keep enjoying school since the pandemic put paid to the rest of the year. However, I applied for a school where they will achieve academically, but didn't have such academically selective pressure on entry. This is where the prep school benefit showed - they are sporty, and creative and good all rounders who get involved so had lots to talk about at interview and performed well in team exercises and critical thinking tests which made up a proportion of the selection process.

They didn't get a place at our other more selective choice, and when I told them they cheered because they didn't want to go there! They are now happy and thriving - my only regret not having the courage to apply for only one school. So choice of school doesn't have to be an aspirational or challenging one, it can also be finding the right school where they'll be happy and have a comfortable chance of getting a place.

Hello, thank you for your information! Could you please tell me which 4 independent schools too? Thanks again!

Hi @WineAndMassage, could you please tell me which 4 independent schools? Thanks a lot!

We did past papers and one month Atom to get format from state primary

Ds did get into Alleyn’s but we also had Charter which we’d have loved so didn’t push him at all

@Yvonne282

Hi *@WineAndMassage*, could you please tell me which 4 independent schools? Thanks a lot!

St Paul's, Kings, Westminster and Alleyn.

NC in case outing, but I work at a very academically selective private school. Yes, there are definitely allowances made for state school applicants. It's not an actual pool or percentage - but we are looking for potential rather than just a straight top slice of exam scores, so would 'make allowances' if we felt that a state school child had real potential. We would also allow for the fact that we're less likely to get a polished reference from the current school, and that the candidate may be less confident in interviews.

Thanks once again!