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What is going on at Winchester College, anyone know why they are considering co-ed?!!!

162 replies

flourandeggs · 24/01/2021 07:49

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/winchester-one-of-the-last-boys-boarding-schools-may-admit-girls-m792dck68

OP posts:
Elij00 · 13/03/2021 15:45

@bloomingbarbara

This isn’t particularly useful as I can’t find the article but I’m sure I read that single sex girls’ schools are one of the schools most likely to close or be amalgamated so I don’t think it’s true that it’s just boys’ schools at risk. Off the top of my head I can think of St Mary’s Shaftesbury closing, Knighton House and Westonbirt going coed, and St Teresa’s merging with Cranmore. All in the last year or two...
Those are not big names schools though. It looks like there is pressure on the Big name Boys schools to go co-ed and none for their Girls equivalent.
Elij00 · 13/03/2021 15:56

Coronateachingagain

I will appreciate that thanks because the Big Name All Boys Grammar and Independent schools are doing well as far as I know.

With regards to St Paul's, I can't find any article that states when, the only ones I can see says "talks are ongoing".

Coronateachingagain · 13/03/2021 20:06

@Elij00

Coronateachingagain

I will appreciate that thanks because the Big Name All Boys Grammar and Independent schools are doing well as far as I know.

With regards to St Paul's, I can't find any article that states when, the only ones I can see says "talks are ongoing".

The grammar boys and top independents will continue to do extremely well. This is just marginal and also that increasingly boys and girls prefer CO-Ed for sixth form.

Re St Paul’s - we have OPs in the family and it is a done deal. Not sure when it starts, I think 2022.

puffyisgood · 13/03/2021 21:38

I half suspect that some kind of wider set of changes might be afoot here.

Up to and including the 1800s, all English secondary schools [to the fairly limited extent that such a thing existed for most kids] were single sex.

This started to fall away very gradually, accelerating rapidly at around the time of the grammar/modern to comprehensive change of the 60s & 70s to the extent that very few state secondary schools weren't co-ed.

To the [fairly modest] extent that there's a trend in private schools it's away from single sex and towards co-ed.

Almost none of the pretty decent number of new schools that get opened up every year are single sex.

Can anyone see where this might be going...?

Elij00 · 13/03/2021 23:37

Coronateachingagain

I need to ask my Old Paulines mates of mine for clarity as it looks like I might be a bit behind. If it is indeed true, it goes back to my point of forcing Boys schools to go co-ed and not their Girls equivalent.

Girls tend to pick more STEM focused subjects at All Girls schools and it seems parents on Mumsnet look All Girls(and apparently so do their wards)schools so it might not be as popular as we think.

Elij00 · 14/03/2021 00:01

@puffyisgood

I half suspect that some kind of wider set of changes might be afoot here.

Up to and including the 1800s, all English secondary schools [to the fairly limited extent that such a thing existed for most kids] were single sex.

This started to fall away very gradually, accelerating rapidly at around the time of the grammar/modern to comprehensive change of the 60s & 70s to the extent that very few state secondary schools weren't co-ed.

To the [fairly modest] extent that there's a trend in private schools it's away from single sex and towards co-ed.

Almost none of the pretty decent number of new schools that get opened up every year are single sex.

Can anyone see where this might be going...?

Tbh I don't mind Schools going Coed as long as changes are done across the board. You can't just simply turn all All Boy's schools co-ed in Sixth-form and not do the same for their female equivalent. Its not right.

I actually don't mind the All Boy's schools going co-ed at Sixth-form because let's be honest it's been a bastion for Male privilege for centuries and it's only right women get to enjoy that privilege too. Just don't make it one sided.

Coronateachingagain · 14/03/2021 21:03

@Elij00

Coronateachingagain

I need to ask my Old Paulines mates of mine for clarity as it looks like I might be a bit behind. If it is indeed true, it goes back to my point of forcing Boys schools to go co-ed and not their Girls equivalent.

Girls tend to pick more STEM focused subjects at All Girls schools and it seems parents on Mumsnet look All Girls(and apparently so do their wards)schools so it might not be as popular as we think.

I agree on the girls side, the girls schools will still deliver academically, the girls don't need to be domesticated as much as the boys before going to uni. 😂😂😂 (just waiting for the reaction to that comment!)

However it is apparently becoming a trend that girls also increasingly want CO-Ed for sixth form, so not sure in the long long term where it may end up.

Elij00 · 15/03/2021 15:10

Coronateachingagain

Loool that's cheeky of you🤣😂 but yh Girls tend to do better academically at A Levels but they are somehow still underrepresented when it comes to STEM Subjects at Unis I wonder why?

Well maybe in the not too distant future, all Schools will become Co-ed at Sixth-form Level as I don't see it happening at Secondary level(up to GCSE)

njshore · 16/03/2021 23:46

@Elij00, I agree with you. I just read this article in the Spectator by the hypocritical Clarissa Farr, former HM of SPGS & current Governor of Winchester who defends all-girls schools and believes their existence is justified in order for them to compete in a male-dominated world.

On the other hand, she believes all-boys schools are old-fashioned and not relevant in today's woke culture and should be dismantled.

That's a load of double-standards, if you ask me. If you are anti boys-only schools, it should go both ways. I'm sure her being on the Winchester School's Board have something to do with their recent announcement to admit day students and girls in Sixth Form.

I attach the article here from the Spectator.

Elij00 · 17/03/2021 00:34

[quote njshore]@Elij00, I agree with you. I just read this article in the Spectator by the hypocritical Clarissa Farr, former HM of SPGS & current Governor of Winchester who defends all-girls schools and believes their existence is justified in order for them to compete in a male-dominated world.

On the other hand, she believes all-boys schools are old-fashioned and not relevant in today's woke culture and should be dismantled.

That's a load of double-standards, if you ask me. If you are anti boys-only schools, it should go both ways. I'm sure her being on the Winchester School's Board have something to do with their recent announcement to admit day students and girls in Sixth Form.

I attach the article here from the Spectator.[/quote]
The cheek on some of these Heads. Can you please attach the article to one of your posts as I'd like to read it?

The Alarming double standards has been my issue with it all long. I'd be the first one shouting from the rooftops if All Girls Schools are turning Coed at the same rate their Boys counterparts are but alas no. For example how can there be pressure on St Paul's school to turn Coed but little to no pressure on St Paul's girls?

Winchester,Eton, Radley and Harrow are all under massive scrutiny to reverse their "Misogynistic" admission policies but none of that smoke is reserved for Downe House, Wycombe Abbey,Roedean, Benenden and Cheltenham Ladies. Make that make sense? Surely what's good for the goose is also good for the gander?
Either leave them the way they currently are or force every single one of them to go co-ed at Sixth-form.

Boys need their own space and time away from Girls as much as Girls need theirs away from Boys.

ConeHat · 17/03/2021 00:47

My son goes to all boys school. The school talk about wanting to take on girls a lot but due to the way it was established ( funding - details escape me) they cant go co-ed. They have looked into setting up a new school to accommodate girls along side what they offer now.

Lots of parents for years have been saying "if only you took girls, you would be perfect for my dd" but this is a pretty unique school and theres nothing like it for boys or girls anywhere else in county or neighbouring counties

Kokeshi123 · 17/03/2021 02:06

Two point: if there starts to be a general trend of "It's fine for girls' schools to be for girls only, but the boys' schools need to go co-ed," does this not risk creating a situation where co-ed schools tend to be boy-heavy? Not easy for those girls, I would have thought.

Also, just as girls in single-sex schools seem to be more likely to get into sports and STEM subjects, I wonder if things like boys' choirs and other artistic activities tend to have higher take-up in some all-boys' schools.

njshore · 17/03/2021 20:15

www.spectator.co.uk/article/mixed-blessing-do-single-sex-schools-have-a-future-

Clarissa Farr
Mixed blessing: do single-sex schools have a future?
11 March 2021
From Spectator Life

Mixed blessing: do single-sex schools have a future?

If you were starting with a blank screen to design an education system today, it seems unlikely that you would think of creating single-sex schools, any more than you would single-sex professions or single-sex restaurants. Education for life is something we do together, like working or eating. Their existence is explained by the fact that when the first were established, most girls didn’t go to school. William of Wykeham founded Winchester in 1382 for ‘poore scholars’ who would be boys — that was obvious. Dean John Colet founded St Paul’s School in 1509, taking advice from Erasmus of Rotterdam and putting the management of the 153 scholars ‘from all nacions and all countres indifferently’ into the hands of the Mercers’ Company. These men were visionaries who thought about wide access and international reach. Were they alive today, would they exclude girls from that vision?

Schools for girls developed much later. Although there are notable examples of institutions in Europe which permitted women throughout the medieval and Renaissance period, the first school in England offering a comparable education to girls was North London Collegiate School, founded in 1850 by Frances Buss. There followed Cheltenham Ladies’ College, where the second headmistress was the suffragist Dorothea Beale. The Mercers’ Company took a full 500 years to found St Paul’s Girls’ School in 1904. That’s quite an opportunity cost for half the population.

So is there still a case for single-sex schools today? Given the long history of some of these well--established boys’ schools, it isn’t surprising that the idea of admitting girls to them should take some getting used to. Nor is it perverse that there should be such passionate advocacy for the girls’ school movement, which has a full half-millennium of catching up to do and, if you look at the inequalities in society more widely, has by no means finished what it started.

Girls’ schools had to play catch-up and still have the quality of revolutionary zeal. Their detractors point to the fact that the ‘real world’ is mixed, so girls just need to get used to that. Certainly schools need to prepare young people for society as it is. But they can and must do more to inform and drive the values by which that society is shaped.

Girls’ schools encourage young women to take themselves seriously in the best way: they are not taught to ‘play nicely’ because they are girls, to assume they will be less talented at science or maths than their brothers, to defer to male opinion because it’s more loudly expressed or that the height of their ambitions should be to be the wives of top men. If they love sport, they would prefer to be playing it than watching from the touchline; and if the school play is Macbeth, they assume they can play the main part — in fact any of the parts. They grow up thinking they can do almost anything because at school, they can.

When these capable and confident young women get into the workplace, they often find that the so-called modern world is, in fact, lagging far behind. I’ve lost count of the stories my former students have told of being given the ‘diligent’ work on which their male peers build their promotions. We know that the gender pay gap will take almost a century to close (better than five centuries perhaps), that female CEOs are in a minority in the top companies and that the disproportionate impact of the pandemic on the careers of women is estimated to have put equality back a further decade. We are not slow to expose women to risk — studies from Harvard Business School have shown that failing companies are more likely to appoint women at the top, where they are presumably seen as more expendable should they fall off the ‘glass cliff’.

More fundamentally it’s worth remembering that there is a United Nations sustainable development goal related entirely to gender equality and to empowering women and girls around the world. While equality is a work in progress, held back by such deep-rooted and long-established biases, there will continue to be a role for girls’ schools which concentrate on one thing: accelerating that rate of change.

Some schools are pushing forward progress. Are others holding it back? Single-sex schools for boys are something of a rarity in 2021 and, understandably, cleave to their traditions fiercely.

Schools are essentially conservative places, not because teachers are risk averse but because young people don’t want the school they know to change. And no wonder: for those of us lucky enough to recall our school days with affection (and I know there will be readers who do not) our school is part of our secret internal landscape. The classrooms, the corridors, the places we loitered with our friends, the smell of the polish on the hall floor and the echo in the changing rooms — these things stay with us and are a part of what anchors us in our adult lives. The idea of that remembered place changing in any way, never mind being infiltrated by the opposite sex, is unsettling, and for those still at the school, perhaps unthinkable.

But however long their histories and however deeply loved their traditions, schools are about the future. As teachers grow older, students do not: generation succeeds generation, emerging into a world where change is inevitable. And they have to be ready. Boys educated in boys’ schools will find themselves in a mixed workplace where (when the girls’ schools have done their job) they may have a female boss. Their partners may expect to combine a career with a family, and shared parental leave will be the norm. It seems to me less clear why a school which purely from historical happenstance has educated only boys should necessarily continue to do so. Indeed, in 2021, it needs a compelling reason to exclude girls.

A truly co-ed school is of course not the same as a boys’ school with girls in it: too many have seen this as a way of ornamenting or enhancing the education of the boys, rather than providing vibrant education for all. Whereas a modern sense of womanhood can be developed in a girls’ school, boys learn better to be modern men when they are able readily to accept that society is increasingly not theirs alone to rule.

Great education takes many forms, and for those parents able to pay for private education it’s highly desirable for there to be choice, not just between co-ed and single sex but also in terms of size, culture and the many other characteristics which make a school unique. Each school must celebrate its unique culture, be true to its values and, considering the impacts both within and beyond its walls, take the right steps to evolve. As more and more schools embrace co--education, and as all-male environments attract criticism for allowing (no doubt unconsciously) a darker version of masculinity to take hold, it seems likely that a decade from now there will be even fewer boys’ schools. Tradition is powerful, but the case simply isn’t as compelling.

EtonianMother · 17/03/2021 20:21

OP. obviously I don't know why Winchester has gone down this route. However, I do know that if I'd been tossing up between Winchester, Harrow and Eton when the DSs were that age, I'd have discounted Winchester on the spot in the light of this.

Single sex is immeasurably better for boys and girls alike.

All my DC have been through single sex schools, as did XH and I. It's a stupid and short-sighted move on Winchester's part.

somethingonthecarpet · 17/03/2021 20:33

Girl's schools are going to lose out eventually for the simple reason that even if they go co-ed to compete, there are few boys who would be willing to attend Cheltenham Ladies for example. Equally, what boy is going to want to go to St Swithun's, when he could go to Winchester? But a girl might choose Winchester, for the sixth form, just as they do Marlborough. It is more fashionable for girls to take up places in schools which were previously all boys, than the other way around.

BloomingBarbara · 17/03/2021 21:34

@somethingonthecarpet I don’t know if I agree with that. St Swithuns and Winchester are very different and the former is a day option. I wouldn’t consider boarding for my boys so Win Coll is out but I would certainly consider St Swithuns if it went co-Ed (and I had the money). I think my boys would do quite well in a girl heavy school.

Kokeshi123 · 18/03/2021 01:28

there are few boys who would be willing to attend Cheltenham Ladies for example.

I am pretty sure they'd change the name!
Here in Japan, a lot of girls' schools have become co-ed. Parents of boys are happy to consider them as they feel like it will be easier to get boys in due to the school wanting to create gender balance and of course some boys like the idea of (hopefully) getting a lot of attention.

Mummy195 · 18/03/2021 08:32

@Kokeshi123

I am pretty sure they'd change the name!

Maybe not immediately. This talk reminds me of when I met a lovely young man who just left Camden School for Girls. It was a few years ago, and they still have not changed their name. They take boys on 6th form.

Coronateachingagain · 18/03/2021 22:47

[quote njshore]@Elij00, I agree with you. I just read this article in the Spectator by the hypocritical Clarissa Farr, former HM of SPGS & current Governor of Winchester who defends all-girls schools and believes their existence is justified in order for them to compete in a male-dominated world.

On the other hand, she believes all-boys schools are old-fashioned and not relevant in today's woke culture and should be dismantled.

That's a load of double-standards, if you ask me. If you are anti boys-only schools, it should go both ways. I'm sure her being on the Winchester School's Board have something to do with their recent announcement to admit day students and girls in Sixth Form.

I attach the article here from the Spectator.[/quote]
Classic Clarissa from what I know and heard. It is all written for the circumstances but especially the last paragraph (the conclusion) is quite confusing. I guess she had to reconcile and please more than one party and this is quite difficult. You need to read what she says with her agenda in mind

BasiliskStare · 19/03/2021 02:58

caveat no insider knowledge here.

I am not sure Winchester will be struggling for cash per se. It's a relatively well off school with a good reputation. What ( & I am musing here - I do not know ) is how the numbers of UK applicants vs international applicants they are getting given the fees and whether they think that is changing the feel of the school. It is roughly the size of Radley / Harrow - bit bigger / Westminster ( I think ) , but about half the size of Eton.
I can see them looking at the Westminster model and thinking girls in 6th form sounds great as a toe in the water.
Winchester does have a certain ethos ( I know some alumni) but I think the quirky thing if I am honest is more of an MN construct . What , in the past , they have always said is that they are an unashamedly intellectual school. & guess what , girls can be very very clever indeed.

If they can manage to preserve the feel of the school - which I do think is unlike many - I think this could be a really good way forward. That said I do know alumni who have said "that would not be the school I went to" So that could be good or bad. For every old boy donation they lose , they may get back in old girl donations in years to come Grin

I do see how current / prospective parents / old boys will not like the change and to be honest I think the school is a bit special & it would be lovely to think it could continue in its current way But I am not in charge of the school so I trust this has been carefully through.

I would be surprised though if this is a knee jerk reaction to a bank balance.

Again - caveat - no insider knowledge - not a journalist /PR person - just my own thoughts

Elij00 · 19/03/2021 03:02

@njshore

Thanks for that article. Absolutely absurd.

nolanscrack · 19/03/2021 11:24

Not sure those who want to get away from quirky will take much solace from a recent article in the Spectator where a OW told of a fellow pupil who kept a dictionary in a cage and "fed" it cabbage...

BasiliskStare · 19/03/2021 11:51

@nolanscrack Ha ha ha - that's not quirky that is utter genius / bonkers. Oh that has made me laugh . I assume said man could not fit carrots through the bars.

nolanscrack · 19/03/2021 11:53

Lets just hope it wasnt Rishi...

BasiliskStare · 21/03/2021 22:35

@nolanscrack I cannot get this out of my head now - Rishi saying in cabinet - So I will explain my reasons for extending furlough , but just before I do ( gets out tupperware box with shredded lettuce and feeds a copy of Hansard in a cage ) I do realise I have gone bit left field here

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