What is going on at Winchester College, anyone know why they are considering co-ed?!!!

[flourandeggs]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/winchester-one-of-the-last-boys-boarding-schools-may-admit-girls-m792dck68

Given that one of the best state sixth forms in the country is up the road (PSC), perhaps they are trying to stay relevant.

The only thing that makes me cross dipdips (and you also seem to have come from nowhere) is when words like equality, diversity and discrimination are misappropriated as a cover for an agenda that is purely for financial returns and in this case probably also for the headmaster’s self promotion.

Bellee1 the relevance of PSC is due to it being a state school (although of course with a predominantly MC catchment. An expensive day school cannot be relevant to the wider community.

@sendsummer it is a business! Of course it is interested in financial returns, all businesses are. It is also looking at long term projections and how to stay afloat in a rapidly changing landscape just like all businesses are. Hats off to them for being proactive rather than waiting and having to make big changes to their academic staff or losing pupils due to a less exciting offer due to financial constraints. They clearly didn’t think they could survive in the longs run as they are and IT IS A BUSINESS!

@sendsummer Something has to be a first post, no? This is a discussion/chat thread where everyone is anonymous. Why can’t people just have curiosity and explore ideas and different views?

Anyway, FWIW I really do have no vested interest in Winchester. Plus my posts do not applaud them at all - I think you are seeing something that isn’t there. Whatever, I have nothing to do with them. But. I have long been fascinated in their aloof positioning /image re quirky extra special place for academic boys which I think is likely mostly marketing and maybe now not selling to enough people - lots and lots of places are very special academic environments!!

My interest also stems from a firm, maybe passionate, belief that all schools should be co-Ed - and that the impact of them not being co-Ed is far reaching, in a negative way - for individuals (of both sexes) and detrimental to creating sexual equality in society! I'm allowed to have that view. So, the fact that Winchester - famous for only admitting boys - is going co-Ed is very interesting to me, and whatever their motive - very welcome in my view. I am allowed that personal view too sendsummer.

I've just had a look at the marketing on their website and it's all about modernising, future purpose etc etc - and I personally think at least part of the agenda is to ensure they attract the students they want and a desire to stay relevant in today and tomorrow’s world!

You say in the thread “I suspect it is not a shortage of boys who want to board especially at sixth form entry but rather a dwindling number in the UK who can pay £41,709 fees. By providing cheaper day places the school expands their pool of fee paying UK pupils whilst avoiding the upfront capital expenditure of a new boarding house.”

I say there are plenty of people that would and do pay that kind of fee elsewhere and that actually the changes will add:
girls,
boys from families that don't want a single sex environment,
boys and girls from families that don’t want boarding
....and so provide a much bigger pool of applicants to chose from (ones that currently go elsewhere from the outset) and make the cohort and their backgrounds far more diverse!

But, yes the majority will still be from families that can pay - who said otherwise? That’s another diversity issue. That's also
the business model of private education.

The HM biog is from reading the recent news article! It was merely to illustrate that I also personally think this must have been brewing for a while - otherwise why hire a head with co-Ed transition form? Not sure what point you are trying to make on that.

BTW I could also ask what your special interest is here? Why you seem to be so annoyed with my posts, aggressive in dismissing my views by finger pointing to a non existent sinister motive from me?! Seems odd.

@dipdips I would like to think that Winchester College is a little more than a business (with capital letters) and I think a lot of parents will agree with this. I would also like to think that they made the changes because they would not survive as a sustainable, productive organisation adding great value to society in the long term, and not because they would not survive "as a business". (disclosure I have learnt a little about managing the financial side of "businesses" in my profession)
@Bellee11 One point to consider is that the Headmaster is merely executing the strategy and these decisions were made long time ago (at least before he was recruited and also before Clarissa Farr joined the board). Same way of doing things as for any business
@Bellee11 also agree these posters are coming from nowhere! They should stop digging.... they are getting no brownie points for over justifying the school's decisions - you will see that someone will stop them soon and they will soon disappear back to wherever they came from.

@Coronateachingagain you just contradicted yourself by telling @Bellee11 that it is the same way as any other business. I am not for a moment denying that this school can add all sorts of lovely things to society but I was reacting to @sendsummer frustration that they are behaving like a business. If they don’t behave like a business they won’t survive because they are a business, albeit an educational one. So they have to make decisions from that place not from a place where current parents want to carry on with the current set up. And as for people popping up in posts that is what Mumsnet is for! You can’t control who comments on posts it is a democracy on here and slightly unmumsnet like to be inciting posters to see people off if they don’t like what they are saying - rather trumpian in fact.

[quote dipdips]@Coronateachingagain you just contradicted yourself by telling @Bellee11 that it is the same way as any other business. I am not for a moment denying that this school can add all sorts of lovely things to society but I was reacting to @sendsummer frustration that they are behaving like a business. If they don’t behave like a business they won’t survive because they are a business, albeit an educational one. So they have to make decisions from that place not from a place where current parents want to carry on with the current set up. And as for people popping up in posts that is what Mumsnet is for! You can’t control who comments on posts it is a democracy on here and slightly unmumsnet like to be inciting posters to see people off if they don’t like what they are saying - rather trumpian in fact.[/quote]
Thanks @dipdips

"they are getting no brownie points for over justifying the school's decisions - you will see that someone will stop them soon and they will soon disappear back to wherever they came from" @Coronateachingagain

Wow! I am aghast at your threatening tone.

1. There is no 'over justifying' of decisions!
2. So who awards brownie points here - more to the point who wants or needs them?
3. someone will stop them soon ... ??? Ha ha ha Are you for real? What?? Who? Why?? Plus ...
4. lots of people on here understand business - not just you.
5. you seem hopeful for Winchester's more than a business purpose - why is that?

@dipdips it is more nuanced than that........ yes they behaved like a business in that particular point. That is just a fact, doesn't mean you agree with it of course. Nothing wrong with that. What matters also in business, are your intentions, which in this case, we all hope go beyond purely business purposes, which should never be enough justify your actions, especially for this school. Life is not that simple, even in business!
Trumpian rather good pre-emptive line, when you are not taking a relative approach in your comments.

@Coronateachingagain ??????????

Winchester people I know who sent their sons to WinCol sent daughters to Bryanston.
Being able to have siblings at the same school would have been a bonus for them.
Wincol and Symonds kids all socialise informally.
Swithuns already has lots of day pupil which Wincol doesn't
that would be the mega change for them

frustration that they are behaving like a business.
What should I be frustrated? I said from the start that the school’s decision is a business one and signals financial need. I am reacting to attempts in these posts to propagate the idea that the agenda is about equality, diversity and ending discrimination. Together with growing cynicism about the motivation behind such posts.

@sendsummer

frustration that they are behaving like a business. What should I be frustrated? I said from the start that the school’s decision is a business one and signals financial need. I am reacting to attempts in these posts to propagate the idea that the agenda is about equality, diversity and ending discrimination. Together with growing cynicism about the motivation behind such posts.

Good morning. You're up early @sendsummer

I’m afraid the cynicism is misplaced. I’m truly not sure where the paranoia is coming from?

I have already explained my position fully, it certainly is not what you describe!!

But perhaps more importantly so what?? Different views are allowed - surely they are to be expected on a chat forum? Why is that an attempt to shut them down but accusations of vested interested and cynical motive? The lack of grace and tolerance for personal independent thought on this is astounding. Why is a reasonable alternative view seemingly being discredited and explained away by accusation of a vested interest? That's just mud slinging.

At the risk of ‘sounding like a broken record‘ which you’ll be pleased I’m now about to play again in an attempt for what I am actually saying to be heard.

I personally think Winchester wants more applicants - a bigger pool of children /young adults to chose from and they want/need to stay relevant and today and lots of parents happy to paying fees don't want single sex full boarding.

Secondly - I think choosing a school is not about the money for the many^^ many UK parents paying the same sorts of fees as Winchester - but choosing to not even try to go there (or not be allowed because they have a daughter).

I have also said ‘who knows?’ about the school’s agenda - I certainly don’t - but I imagine there are multiple layers to it and reasons for it .... MY point has always been that if the outcomes of the changes include what I believe they will - access for a more diverse group of people, access for women, boys and girls being educated together, a few less children going to boarding school at all etc, - then those outcomes are very welcome in my view.

I am sorry you are so frustrated by my personal views, but that’s life.

Well, this thread has certainly been an eye-opener.
Cant believe allowing 50% of the population a chance to get in to this fancy school has got so many people's knickers in a twist!
Bit offended that my daughter's presence would be viewed as evidence of pandering to 'the lowest common denominator' in 2021.
(Not that she can go- we don't have £41,709 lying around spare!)

Woe betide anything getting in the way of the world's most fortunate boys!

@AngelicaElizaAndPeggy

Well, this thread has certainly been an eye-opener. Cant believe allowing 50% of the population a chance to get in to this fancy school has got so many people's knickers in a twist! Bit offended that my daughter's presence would be viewed as evidence of pandering to 'the lowest common denominator' in 2021. (Not that she can go- we don't have £41,709 lying around spare!)

Woe betide anything getting in the way of the world's most fortunate boys!

👍🏻 very nicely put.

The OP, flourandeggs, says:

‘I suspect their lead PR person has a fat file named 'rebranding' on her desk. For a start young people don't think so much in terms of 'sex' as 'gender' these days, so you can't really sell yourself as a 'single sex' school to young adults who increasingly don't believe in such limiting terms.’

Biological sex is not a ‘limiting term’ that young people should not be encouraged to ‘believe in’ as if it were optional. Biological sex is a physical fact of scientific reality. Will biology no longer be taught at this school then, because it’s too ‘limiting’? What about other aspects of personal identity, like age or ethnicity- will pupils be encouraged not to ‘believe’ in those either? Or would that in fact be incredibly insulting and complacent to those pupils discriminated against in an unacceptable way on the basis of those characteristics, for example who have been subject to racism? And why would sex be any different?

‘Gender’ = whatever the current cultural stereotypes dictate to represent masculinity or femininity, and gender is usually weaponised against the female sex in order to preserve advantage for the male sex.

With this is mind, why rebrand the school at all, if biological sex is irrelevant? Just let the female children enrol (provided they self-identify as boys) and then continue to market it unchanged as a boys’ school...?

And should a single sex school force a boy to leave and disrupt his education just because he has gender-identified himself as a girl, or as a non-binary child, and the school now believe pupils can literally change sex by declaring a new gender?

No. Of course not. Seem as if this school, like most others, does in fact know that ‘gender’ is not the whole story..

Schools that actually fail to grasp the difference between sex and gender in this day and age are very concerning, because this allows a number of sexist and homophobic and anti-scientific and anti-safeguarding ideas to seek to justify themselves. So clearly this distinction is absolutely essential for every credible educational organisation to understand and act on.

Its very sad for the girls and boys a mixed sex environment when the adults around them can’t understand that the implications of sex and gender persist prominently in young people’s lives today. As any girl or woman will have experienced, sexism has not gone away, and it cannot be ‘identified out of’ according to declaring a new gender identity. It needs to be proactively tackled by schools to make the school environment a place for girls to learn as equals alongside their male peers.

Biological sex is not a ‘limiting term’ that young people should not be encouraged to ‘believe in’ as if it were optional.

Oops- an extra ‘not’ crept in there sorry.
Biological reality isn’t optional was my point.

This debate seems to be giving a free pass to the school for imposing changes on pupils and parents that they expressly did not sign up for. Look at the timing of the announcement- just when it became too late for this year's entry to opt out and go elsewhere. To read this thread you might think opting for single sex schooling is a shameful thing (although no one seems scandalised by W Abbey, Downe House, CLC, SPGS, Roedean etc etc etc). I've no particular view on Winchester becoming coeducational but if I were a current or soon-to-be parent I'd be pretty furious the change was decided in such a clandestine manner and impacts on current and incoming boys. Why not go for girls in Y9 from 2022 or 23?

@Darbishire27

This debate seems to be giving a free pass to the school for imposing changes on pupils and parents that they expressly did not sign up for. Look at the timing of the announcement- just when it became too late for this year's entry to opt out and go elsewhere. To read this thread you might think opting for single sex schooling is a shameful thing (although no one seems scandalised by W Abbey, Downe House, CLC, SPGS, Roedean etc etc etc). I've no particular view on Winchester becoming coeducational but if I were a current or soon-to-be parent I'd be pretty furious the change was decided in such a clandestine manner and impacts on current and incoming boys. Why not go for girls in Y9 from 2022 or 23?

This changes was just coming. All the top boys academic schools are going co-Ed for Sixth Form. Research shows it is good for the boys and good prep for uni.

Kings, St Paul's and Westminster are now all co-ed for Sixth Form and Winchester competes directly with those. Let's see what Eton does, only a matter of time...

To be fair to Win Coll, this new rule comes into effect starting from Sept 2022. I also don't think they'll ever go fully co-ed as I imagine it'll be like the Westminster situation where girls are only accepted at Sixth-form level.

Although I somewhat agree with you with regards to the Single Sex thing. I can think of lots of All Girls Private schools especially the London day ones but not a lot of their male counterparts. I don't know why the pressure is only on the All Boys Schools to convert. Roedean quickly shutdown any rumours of them accepting boys at ALevels.

I suspect Eton,Harrow and Radley will be next.

Coronateachingagain

Can you pls show me the report that states it's good for Boys? All the Academic Boys Independent and Grammar schools have done absolutely fine without Girls as far as I can see. It Might be good for the middling or poorly performing ones though.

St Paul's is still all boys.

@Elij00

Coronateachingagain

Can you pls show me the report that states it's good for Boys? All the Academic Boys Independent and Grammar schools have done absolutely fine without Girls as far as I can see. It Might be good for the middling or poorly performing ones though.

I try to google later but you will find lots of mentions about it in Mumsnet too

@Elij00

St Paul's is still all boys.

They will now be taking girls for Sixth Form, announced not long ago

This isn’t particularly useful as I can’t find the article but I’m sure I read that single sex girls’ schools are one of the schools most likely to close or be amalgamated so I don’t think it’s true that it’s just boys’ schools at risk. Off the top of my head I can think of St Mary’s Shaftesbury closing, Knighton House and Westonbirt going coed, and St Teresa’s merging with Cranmore. All in the last year or two...