Which school?

[Pamelaaaaa]

I'm usually the sort of person to answer these types of threads but given it's my own child I keep going round in circles. Without wanting to turn this into a state vs private debate which would you choose?

Child is in year 2 and in an infant school so needs to move for juniors before hopefully getting into grammar!

School A- state school next door to her current infant school, 7 min walk from house, all her friends will be moving next door to this school. 30 kids per class min. 2 classes per year. School has good ofsted and is regarded very highly by locals. However (you knew it was coming didn't you?) everyone views the school as 'chilled' and comments on their wonderful pastoral care. Their results aren't great, below national average. Considering the demographic of the school their results should be way better. The demographic is almost what you'd expect at a private school. If dd goes here, with her friends, I will have to educate her at home too and tutor her for the 11+. I like the teachers, location and children here, just not the academic standards! Going here we could afford a comfy life, go on holiday etc.

School B- private prep, 15 min drive away. 20 kids max per class. 2 classes per year. Outstanding in every respect. Nearly all children who attend end up getting into grammars for year 7. Uniform alone is over £500 plus multiple other expenses but with that comes experiences you don't get in state schools. Academic standards are superb. Obviously there are fees which a relative would help us with but we'd have to be more careful and holiday less frequently, if at all. I wouldn't need to teach my daughter at home and only do the minimum 11+ practise of she goes here.

Notes:
Daughter is very studious, academically able and keen to do work and please.

I'm a teacher so educating my daughter wouldn't be a problem.

Save the money for secondary
70-90% of the parents at the prep are probably paying for extra tutors on top of school fees

Does School B have much of an intake at year 3? Does your child have an offer or is she likely to get one?

What are your plans if your DD does not pass the 11+? Will you be going private for secondary and if so would going private at primary financially impact those plans?

Where do children from School A go at year 7?

How close and reliable is this relative offering to help with fees? What would happen to your DD if this relative backed out of the arrangement after a year or two?

Do you have other children? What are your plans for them?

What school has better activities on offer?

I would chose School B if you can sort out other things I have listed and you have raised.

I think now is the perfect time to be giving up big family holidays anyway.

The other consideration I guess is which school has better lockdown learning!

Thanks for the replies. In answer to questions-

Don't need to save money for secondary.

Will she even get a place at school B? No idea. They do take kids at year 3 each year so there will be spaces.

No other children to worry about, just her.

If she doesn't get into grammar we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. There are 2 comps very close by, or I could go back to work full time so she could go private.

The kids who go to school A go to a mix of the 2 local comps and the 7 grammars.

Relative is very reliable and would quite like to be able to contribute.

Part of me thinks if secondary will be the same regardless of juniors then why spend the money and have a commute to school rather than just walk up the road, but then another part of me thinks why not let her take the best path to secondary as we can? Will she get bored at state school? Feel overwhelmed at private? I wish I had a crystal ball.

If the prep is in Bucks or a “partner school” (one outside the county but children can sit the exam at their own school), then be aware that they are not permitted to tutor for the 11+ in school. Just check if you are getting 11+ prep or whether you will still have to / want to tutor.

My kids were at a Prep partner school and out of the 17 who sat the test, my daughter was the only one not formally tutored outside school (we did some Bond and CGP books).

The main benefit was, however, that her maths was 18-24 months ahead of where it should be. The top sets were really pushed to match their ability. Of course it helped but that by itself wouldn’t have got her through the test.

So just ensure you know exactly what they are offering in terms of the prep before signing up!!!!

I don't need to worry about lockdown learning. I'd teach her myself like last time. Quite frankly I'd home school if I could afford to quit work!

If you feel the fees are a stretch and it’s all about getting into a grammar rather than music, sport etc, then I’d be tempted to stick with the local state school. Poor performance is a concern but you’ll be able to prep her for 11+ despite the school, especially if you’re a part-time teacher so have the time and the skills. If there’s a better state school nearby, you could also try to go on a waiting list for it.

Thanks for the advice. Completely different part of the country though. Around 15-20% of kids at state primaries go to grammars here so 5ish in your average class so it's not as competitive as some areas.

Without focusing too much on secondary I need to decide whether it's worth paying for her to be challenged academically for 4 years or left to coast. Both schools are lovely and will meet her needs in every other way. It's weighing up paying for a better education or going to the local school which has all the benefits of being on the doorstep.

Your DD sounds clever and you are a teacher so you can do the grammar work at home and she will most likely get into grammar school anyway. However, the real question seems to be might she get bored in state primary years 3-6 if she isn’t pushed? Will she not be as happy? Are you sure they are too laid back in the state primary? I had to move one of my kids to private prep because state primary did extend but just in maths and English and he is very strong at those so thrives doing lots of sport, music, chess, drama, foreign languages and science at his prep. Don’t regret moving him at all- he has grown so much. I see his former very bright friends who stayed back and they are doing well academically (because extended at home), but they are not as happy as my son at school itself. My son just adores his school and is excited to go every day. However, also make sure that the prep does feed the grammar as many preps do also feed the top independents (and you will have the same issue there state grammar vs the more enriching/exciting top independent).

That's the thing, it is about the music etc too. She's already learning piano and theory and the prep school have lots of other children who play so they all play together etc whereas the state school will have probably 3 children who can play in the whole school. So there are far more opportunities at the private school. Buuuut, if she'll end up going to the same school at 11 regardless, is there any point in the extra opportunities for 4 years?

70-90% of the parents at the prep are probably paying for extra tutors on top of school fees
Agree with this - although I’d be surprised if it was as low as 70%. And as a rule if a prep school says they teach to the 11+ they mean private entrance exams, not the entrance exams for maintained/grammar schools.

I understand your dilemma. I would stick her in state and add stuff at home tbh, find local music group and spend the money on awesome trips/savings. I would say more than 70% will be tutored at the prep so it's not worth your money.
If you start tutoring her at home from Y3 just doing 15-30mins a day, that will be more than enough by Y6.

The prep school website has a table of leaver destinations for the last 5 years on it. 80% go to grammar, 18% to independent secondaries and 2% to comps.
But it's not about grammar. That's not why I'd send her there. I'd send her there for a superior education. Or do I save the money and teach her at home in evenings and weekends to give her a challenging education?
At the moment I believe being able to walk to school and it being so close is a big plus. Walking to school really aids the brain and body. A lot of people don't realise the impact a short walk to school and back each day can have on both the children and the parents.

I have changed my mind about this decision twice already in the last 3 days. Argh!!

Apply to both and then stress about it? Your decision may be made at that point eg you don't get a space at the prep.
I tutor some kids in preps and tbh I don't see the appeal. Maybe if it wasn't so expensive. It just doesn't seem good value for that it is, and it is a lot of glossy pictures. Don't underestimate how much she'll learn with you and as you say, benefit from being local.

What does your DD's father think (if he is on the scene)?

Four years is quite a long time for a child and these are formative years too.

Btw you can always park a few minutes away from the school and let her walk.

If the state school's results are below national average despite being in a privileged area I would be concerned.

My husband can see the pros and cons of both, like I can. But ultimately, as a teacher myself he wants me to make the final decision and will support me either way.

We both went to state primaries and private secondaries (didn't live in a grammar area like we do now) so know the different types of schooling reasonably well.

At the moment I'm swaying towards A as we both enjoy me teaching her anyway and that way she can continue with all the numerous clubs she chooses to do and go on lovely holidays abroad etc. I just don't want to do her a disservice.

Hello - difficult decision. My daughter is at an outstanding state primary and I have applied for year 3 entry at an all through top independent. My reason is that I want her to go to a good independent secondary (there aren't many good state options) and so feel that getting her in the system at year 3 would be a good thing.

Have you checked the deadline for Year 3 applications at the prep? The deadline passed some weeks ago for the school I have applied to.

Best of luck with the decision

My dc is in year 3 at what in paper looks like an incredible prep. They get a lot of scholarships and amazing results.

My dc alongside most of their peers have tutors for a few subjects and this pushes the results up like crazy. School definitely turns a blind eye to it as well. My dc is top for maths. But I still hired a maths and English tutor. My friend already has an 11+ tutor.

This is our second prep school and the last one was the same. Just be wary that the schools websites etc and even parents are not selling the whole story. I find that none of the parents themselves admit when things aren't quite right, a bit emperors new clothes.
I am a bit annoyed the that to stay at the top in our school despite having a bright dc I have to hire tutors. My last visit to their uniform shop was £600 for one new winter uniform. Summer was more although they do have second hand but even that's not cheap.
As I said, go in with your eyes wide open. If it's 11+ you're after, I'd probably head down the tutor route now and see how that goes and if that doesn't work then reconsider the private school for year 4/5/6 when the prep really goes up and of course there are some dc that do pass exams without tutors but ime they aren't as common in numbers as those with parents who have hired tutors.

You get one childhood.

Where will she be happy?

If you can afford private you can afford a tutor.

I'd say school A and then you can stretch and challenge her at home after school if necessary.

What a completely crazy situation with all these tutors. They must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I simply don't understand it all. I got 4 A A levels and went to Cambridge from a state primary and secondary school with no tutoring or even parental help. That was over 20 years - what has changed so much? I think it's all a racket....

@Dallasdays I was the same. I couldn't believe how poor the education is now compared to when I went to my crap state school though. I'm including private and state schools in this. In my super rubbish state primary I was always pushed to do my best and helped advance where I could. I excelled and was allowed to read age 13 reading books aged 6 do advanced maths etc.
Nowadays advanced dc are expected to wait until the others catch up in state schools. Unless you're in an amazing school maybe but even then it's gotten even worse since coronavirus as well. Private schools are better for this but still nowhere near imo as good as my crap state school.

Also worth having a look at how many applicants there are to places given at a grammar. It's crazy competition and if you're in a grammar area chances are the comps are not so great. Even worse are application numbers to oxbridge these days.

In my dc school there are also many Chinese dc who will be competing for the same university places or scholarship places but they have tutors from birth and come over to the U.K. from very strict Chinese schools, they learn music and arts from a very young age.

This is what has changed. It's no longer just local dc in the local schools in many parts of the U.K. it's not just the U.K. school system that keeps dc in grammar schools either. Some dc families come over from other countries to get into grammar schools from superior education systems with the aim to get into top British universities.. there are quite a few parents in our prep with similar background to you. I actually wish my dc could have had the same experience of my state school. I had a friend who taught at it now though and they told me there were so many different languages in reception that no one really spoke to each other and she spent the whole lesson time trying to sign language lessons because it was easier than speaking English as hardly any of them understood her. She also had issues when some dc spoke the same language as each other and ended up isolating those that didn't fit into any particular language group.

it's a tough field and has had so many changes since 20 years ago.

If she is bright and well supported then she will do well wherever she is. I would be tempted to keep her in state so that she doesn’t get used to the bubble like private school experience - if she is aiming for a state grammar then being used to larger classes is a plus. Keep the money for tutoring, books, music lessons. It’s a bit like either buying a lovely Charlie Bingham ready meal and chucking in oven or going to an organic market and going to different stalls and then cooking your own version - takes more time but just as (more than?) delicious and very satisfying.

It depends on your dc. If she is the kind of kid who responds well to parental teaching and if she has the energy for lots of out of school activities. For me, the main benefits of academically private preps are: 1. the pace of teaching is faster so bright dc are less likely to get bored in main lessons

1. the additional teaching staff / smaller class sizes means there is better extension and challenge for the brightest
2. as they can get through the curriculum with less repetition the school day can include a lot more activities like music tuition, art, sport, drama etc so these don't have to be done on the weekend or after school.

We have some outstanding state primaries where we are and I really debated this. Its definitely not crucial and I wouldn't do it if it meant you couldn't go out and do interesting things or travel etc. However, if its easily affordable, its a much better experience for a bright DC and even though you can pay for all the extras for cheaper outside of school, your DC spend all their free time in extra curricular activities and at home extension while bored at school. That sounds exhausting for everyone, especially the child unless they are naturally really high energy.

Given you'd only be cutting back for 4 years, if you really can afford it without sacrificing too much in outside of school quality of life, I'd go for it.

I have had experience in both and I would state school and tutor for 11 plus.

@LondonGirl83 as ever school dependent not sector because my experience of state primary with a bright child was very good (less good with my SEN child.) bright child pushed, gifted and talented programs, differentiated work, set in key subjects within class. And loved having a range of friendships from different out of school activities - sports club friends, music friends, drama friends etc widens their social activity and really good when going through the inevitable ups and downs of school friendships as there are other relationships going on. Good/outstanding state schools create great learning environments and often have fabulous teachers as long as your child is able enough to cope with larger classes and doesn’t need hand holding (my SEN child could have done with more hand holding).