Violence at school ... what can I do? I'm so worried

[KMG]

My ds is 5, and started school two weeks ago. We've moved house, so he's gone straight into yr1 with a class of children who've done a year of reception together already. Yr1 seems to be very serious in this school - no afternoons playing that I remember from infants. But it all seems to be great fun.

Anyway, he is doing very well in class - is in the top set for every subject. He generally concentrates well, and co-operates, and works together well in groups.

However, he has been sent to the Head twice already for violence. Once for trying to hit his teacher, and once (today) for hurting some other children.

There's loads of background, of course, not sure what's relevant.

We are thrilled with the school, they are keeping us closely informed, and we are 100% supportive of the way they've dealt with these incidents. His teacher is fantastic. But I just don't know what to do. I've been awake at nights worrying about him. I hate the idea of him trying to hurt other children.

Can anyone offer any hope?

Hi KMG, Your ds sounds as if he is a bright and intellegent child. You dont have to answer and please forgive me if I am implying anything personal but is it possible that he is imitating anything he sees from others (possibly at home)? I dont want to sound rude I just dont know exactly how to ask without being that way. It seems unusual because he is doing so well in school along with other areas. Most kids from what I know who show signs of this type of problem dont do well in school. I understand your worries. It must be so hard to deal with because hes at such a young age. I would defanatly be firm about him not hurting others especially adults. Are the kids being nice to your ds? Is he being picked on and provoked? Sometimes teachers may not want to say anything in fear it will cause discord between both sets of parents.

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Threeangels - thanks for your comments. No, it definitely doesn't come from home. I am concerned about him, not me, but I know people see how he behaves and think, 'what goes on at home?', but we've done the absolute best job we can. He's not been beaten, abused, neglected, ... he doesn't get smacked at all. He gets lavished with unconditional love and affection ... and behaves like some kid with a desperately deprived background!

Robinw - thanks for your comments, but I don't think that's the case. They are mostly told what groups to work with in class, and I know loads of the children have been really friendly to him. He is a bit of a loner, and probably wouldn't notice if others were excluding him anyway!

Unfortunately he is completely shattered at the end of the day, so having friends round for tea is just not an option at the moment.

Is Tigermoth around - any gems of wisdom?

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KMG, I hope I did not offend you. You sound like a wonderful parent.

ahem! < plucks up untold courage> is your choice of punishment at home smacking? if so - have you smacked him for this behaviour!... i would.

Hi KMG.

I think the approach you have at the moment- supporting the school and being "proactive" (hate that word but can't think of a better one right now) about being kept informed- is the right one. I would say that it is vital to keep talking to the teacher, the head- if necessary- and your son. It may also be worth asking for a meeting with the school SENCO if you are worried about this being a more long-term difficulty. He or she may be able to offer your son some support.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but though I think it is essential for you to reinforce the school's message that aggressive behaviour is unacceptable, I also think it is crucial that your son does not feel that you, the school or anyone else views him as a bad or violent person, even if you are shocked and worried at what he has done. I don't know exactly how he hurt the other children or why but I think it's also worth bearing in mind that it is very easy sometimes to be shocked by the description of an incident that can may have been quite innocuous. After all, "violent" can cover many actions from a mild tap to a proper punching fight with no holds barred. I was often quite astonished to read formal descriptions of incidents I'd witnessed when I worked in schools some years ago. They always sounded awful in black and white type yet sometimes they had seemed a mere scuffle, easily sorted out, at the time. Because schools, quite necessarily, have blanket bans on any sort of physical confrontations between pupils, quite minor incidents may be treated very seriously sometimes.
If your son is having ongoing problems at school- whether these are the result of the transition into full time school or part of more long-term issues- he will cope better if his confidence is not jolted too much. Remember to offer lots and lots of praise for the things he does well, especially behaviour wise. And try not to worry too much, if that's not a totally empty statement. He's young with supportive parents and a good school in his favour- that will go a long way to help him IMO, even if there are hurdles ahead. Good luck and HTH.

Thanks all, still can't sleep though!

Anyone got any personal experience of a child like this, who turned into a perfect angel by 5 3/4?

ScummyMummy - do you have any experience of SENCOs. I've always thought it would be up to the school to set in process any moves in that direction. My son does have some behavioural problems - he seems to find it VERY hard to control emotions - gets very excited quite easily, but also his fear, anger, sadness ... all quite over the top. But he's not particularly disruptive in class - they seem to be able to manage him well, and as far as his own work is conerned he is achieving very well - a high flyer. The problems are more in the playground. But I can't help thinking that if he wasn't doing well academically he would have had some sort of referral by now.

I don't think he's bored Robinw - the school seem excellent at giving work at an appropriate level, and it's all so dynamic and well-presented. He says school is great fun. And he has made progress with his writing and spelling in just 2 weeks, so he's learning too. Yes, he is used to lots of 1-to-1, but seems to have adapted pretty well.

Custardo - I am really concerned about my son. I don't want to turn this thread into a pro/anti smacking debate. But for the record, no, we don't smack him. If you want to comment on that, please do so on another thread, I don't want this one hijacked. Thank you

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KMG- don't have much time so apologies if this sounds a bit rushed but essentially if you have concerns about your son and think he might have "special needs"- doesn't have to be a label or diagnosis, just that you think he needs substantially more help than others of his age with certain things, you can request a meeting with the SENCO. Often this is a good way to go in this type of situation where you don't really know what is causing his behaviour as the SENCO should have a range of experiences with all sorts of children and might be able to give you an idea of how to approach the situation/whether this is a common occurance or needs more attention. Sounds like you get on well with his teacher so it might be worth asking him if he thinks an appointment with the SENCO is appropriate/likely to be useful in your situation. But as I say you have every right to see the SENCO whatever the teacher says. HTH.

Thanks ScummyMummy, that is helpful. I will raise it with the teacher next time I see him. My hesitation has been that I don't want people to think I am simply excusing naughty behaviour with the argument that he has 'some kind of problem'.

I just can't believe he's been at school just 12 days, and we are already in this sort of situation. Still, at least we believe in the school 100%, and have good relations with them.

KMG,hello!

have just read this, but I have to go on the school and nursery run so will have to come back to it tomorrow. I've had similar probs with my son, as you are aware, I think. Will try to add to the good advice you are getting.

KMG, I just want to say how teriffic a mum you sound. I'm sure that you will be able to help your little boy through this.

I don't know a lot about these sort of things - I don't know if he is hyperactive at all and I apologise if I'm wide of the mark. It's just that there is a short piece on this in this month's Junior (October) on how to make hyperactivity a positive thing, and it recommends teaching your child relaxation techniques such as slow, deep breathing. There is also a website: www.hacsg.org.uk.

Best of luck.

My nephew is 5 and behaves in a similar way, although he is not quite as bright as your son sounds and some of his behaviour is through the way his behaviour has been dealt with at home. He is the oldest of 3, the next boy was born just 18 months later and I think he has missed out on some toddler behaviour. However, he always used to be the kid that was bullied, now he is the bully. He has undergone some tests recently (the school he attends is very good at dealing with these situations) and he may have some autism tendencies (very mild) whereby he cannot relate to other people and their feelings e.g. he thinks that people are being aggressive towards him when they may be indulging in some 'playful mucking about'. The school are working closely with my SIL on his behaviour and along with a specialist, they are looking at ways of dealing with his behaviour. Not sure whether this is relevant to your son or not, but just another possible angle?

I might be 100% off target, but it might be some help.

You mention that you have just moved school,and that he has gone into year 1. Has there been a significant reduction in the amount of time your son gets to 'run off steam'? I ask because my dd has just gone into year 1 and has had her playtime cut.

My Ds is younger, but very physical. I find that his behviour gets worse if he doesn't get enough physical play. Is you son like that? None of this is ment to down play the situation, as it obviously has you worried. But might some sort of excercise class/football class help to disapate the energy and agression in a postive way? My local gym does lots of stuff for kids.

KMG, first thing, positives: you're really happy with the school and so is your son. He is coping with the work - not only is he learning, he is able to work with others in a group. No mean feat for a five year old IMO. The teachers are able to control his behaviour in the classroom. You also think he is being challenged enough. So I think you've got lots going for you.

You don't say whether the hitting occurred in the playground or the classroom. If in the playground, then you need to find out if the school has a playground problem. My son's last school (coincidently he moved there one term into year 1) was large and did have a problem with playground violence, as I found out later. All the little boys (and some girls) formed gangs and would try to fight each other. A lot of it was bravado and role play but it could turn nasty. Of course the teachers did their best to control it. My son was an eager recruit to this ongoing activity. Joining a little gang was a failsafe way of fitting in - he used to come home full of talk about who was in his team. When his particular gang game erupted into a fights, my ds was right there. Over the course of the year I heard lots of protestations about how he had to protect child A from gang B by hitting child C but only after child D hit him first etc. I couldn't hope to get to the bottom of these convoluted stories, although my son is usually honest. And sometimes the gang games carried on in the classroom. The upshot was that my son would get punished.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that you need to set this in context of what happens in the playground. Also, is your son being singled out for these talks with the head or is he one of several? It may well be that it's common practice for the head to see all children every time they are involved in a fight,as part of their zero tolerance to violence policy. If your son is the only one to see the head you need to know. If you haven't done so, you need to ask his teacher if there's anything about his behaviour that sets him apart from the average (hitting a teacher - what was the background to this?) and follow scummmymmy's advice about seeing a SENCO person. You're not likely to get a clear answer from the teacher as yet, as she's only had him for two weeks, so you may have to wait a while.

Can I offer any hope? well yes and no. My son changed schools and the new playground is very closely supervised and the playfight/gang mentality has not taken hold. He hasn't been in a fight since he arrived three terms ago( he's now in year 4). As a person, he has calmed down immensely and doesn't playfight with his friends outside school. Age 5 saw this beginning. I thnk it happened naturally as he matured emotionally, so wait and see. However, the playfighting was only one aspect of his err 'challenging' behaviour. He still plays the clown and is inattentive and disrespectful when he decides to be - and can be an angel as well. The head and his teachers feel he chooses not to try his best and they are getting fed up with it.

On issues of disrespect and larking around we have been to see the head twice ourselvs this term. On the basis of his last school report, the head has got a new zero tolerance to my son's behaviour policy in place. He has told us that he is personally determind to make my son perform as he should. Every single time my son steps out of line it now seems it's going straight to the top. Temporary exclusion from school for afternoon or so is a possibilty if things don't improve.

Dh and I want to see the head to talk this through. We feel the school is trying to scare our son into respect - a hidden agenda that we feel should be shared with us, his parents. His teachers know we are supportive and have said they cannot give us any more advice - we are doing all we can. But as it is, we feel as if we are all being put on the line. For instance, the first week back ds did not have a new reading record book, and, to ease him back into school(we had just returned from holiday), I said we would not read together that week. When the head did his weekly inspection, he told ds that he would must show him his record book every day if he failed to read at home next week. Eek - all the family is running scared of the head at the moment except our three year old!

Sorry - don't want to ramble on about me, and may start another thread on this after we have seen the head, but just to say, KMG, you're not alone.

Also, probably teaching you to suck eggs, but get your son talking each day about what happened in school. If it's feasible, consider having a quick word with his teacher every day, too, s your ds knows that every litle incident will get back to you. Lavish praise on him for the good bits and tell him how to cope in future when he's landed himself in trouble. Ending on a hopful note, imo there's a good chance the hitting incidents are mostly due to settling in problems and his age.

KMG - You're not alone and please don't stay awake at nights! Any suggestion that your son is some kind of bully seems, IMO, to be way over the top! I actually think this behaviour sounds quite normal in the circumstances and here's why!
I'm in an almost identical position to you - we've just moved, my son has gone into Year One and like yours, is having a hard time. Almost every afternoon this week, I've been 'welcomed' by his teacher telling me what's gone on that day - from not concentrating, to a fight with another boy, to yesterday when he'd lost his afternoon play and been sent to the deputy head for what, I have to say, sounded fairly minor offences to me, but which did include hitting. (I agree with Scummymummy's comments about incidents sounding awful when they're put down in writing). I'm seeing the teacher next week to discuss this and explain some of his background and of course I'm upset, as you are, but my gut feeling is not that this is appalling behaviour but that in context it's quite natural.
Like yours, my son is bright and imaginative, impulsive and emotional. He's come into a new environment in a small village with children who all know each other. My son prefers to operate one-to-one, and at his last school he only settled in once he'd made a 'special friend'. His teacher here tells me he's fine, he's playing with other kids, while he tells me he has no friends. It doesn't make sense unless you know what he means - ie. he has no 'best friend'. Maybe your son works the same way? (You say he's a bit of a loner) Also, however nice the children or the school, there are probably different ways of doing things, different playground traditions, games etc. Adults can sort through the necessary social transitions but a five year old can't. If they feel threatened, confused, pressured, badgered - they're liable to hit out. Next, the change from reception to year one is a big one - even in the same school, children find it hard and all children worry at the start of a new school year. You say he's exhausted at the end of the day - he's probably tired much earlier on in the day and tired children can't control emotions either. Plus, if he's bright, he may get overwhelmed by new situations because he takes in so much information. My ds does that and as a result has problems concentrating in a busy classroom. There are many ways teachers can help there, such as where they place a child in the room.
You seem to have no concerns about his work but my ds has had to make a transition from Letterland to something else. Maybe there are things like that for yours? Just because he's bright and doing well doesn't mean he's not having to work extra hard at learning new systems.
I don't know how recently you moved but that's a big thing for children to deal with too - maybe he coped at the time but a new school is just one thing too many for him and this is how the pressure is finally revealing itself. We expect our small children to cope with a lot of things in life and I think we have to make allowances. You don't have to condone his behaviour, just fight his corner for him at school and help him to work out how to do things better.
I'd love to hear how you get on - in describing this to you, I've reassured myself a bit as well, whereas this morning I burst into tears in the Tesco carpark when I met an old friend who asked how I was! We're about forty minutes from our old home so fortunately I do have old friends to draw on - do you? Because one of the more stressful parts of this to me has been that I can't share my concerns with the other mums here - I don't know them and I don't want my ds to get a bad reputation! I'm so glad there's mumsnet!
Hope this ramble of mine helps - good luck!

Thank you, thank you, everyone who's responded, especially Tigermoth, Scummymummy, and Inkpen.

Sorry this is quite long. If you can't be bothered to read this drivel, read the last paragraph - it's quite amusing.

I haven't really got anyone to really share my feelings with, except dh. I still feel very unsettled here - am emailing friends from back home (250 miles away), but know if I phone I will just cry. Also the new school are quite critical of the old nursery and school, which obviously is the one all his old friends go to. So that's quite tricky to negotiate too. So am feeling quite lonely, and very pleased to have mumsnet. Maybe I should pay a second subscription!

Have had a few vague chats with waiting mums about the fact that he's been getting into trouble - so far they all seem fine about it - breaks the ice anyway. (I don't think he has hurt anyone very badly, which probably helps).

We had another playground incident yesterday - though this was a two-sided dispute, and both boys were disciplined. Fortunately dh had the day off work and he picked him up, so had the interview with the teacher and chat with the Head!

The school does not have a playground problem - quite the opposite, which is why they take these things so seriously. He hasn't been to school before, so the whole playground thing is new to him, so we've been talking a lot about what he can do in the playground. Anyway, he came out with a clean slate today, so that's a step in the right direction.

At least I know his teacher better than all the other mums in the class, who've been at the school for 1 - 2 yrs already!

Head and teacher want us to arrange a meeting one day soon, to discuss ds generally. There are some other concerns about behaviour. Must admit at his last nursery, they just didn't seem interested in modifying behaviour, especially during the last term when they knew he was moving and would be somebody's else's problem! So thus far it seems a relief.

The 'disrespect' thing is an issue for us too, Tigermoth. ds told the Head he was going to buy the school and sack all the teachers, and also told the dinnerladies something similar too. He doesn't seem at all scared of the Head (I'm terrified of her), and doesn't realise that being sent to the Head 3 times in your first month at school is not usual!

Sometimes I wish he was not so bright. After the first incident, he was thrilled when the Head came to see him 4 days later, asked his teacher how he was doing, and took him to her office to give him a sticker - a Head Teacher's Award - a big sticker. He was thrilled with his sticker, and top marks for rewarding good behaviour, etc. BUT My precocious son told me that evening that no-one else in his class had such a sticker, and that to get another one he had to do something really naughty, and then be good for a few days! I'm really pleased we've got open lines of communication with the school, and we have actually passed this info on to them, so they will be awarding stickers with care. However, today the Head of Infants had given him a big special sticker too (he was on playground duty yesterday, but has otherwise not been involved). So today ds tells me that he now has two big special stickers and none of his classmates have any! AAaaarrrgghhhhhh!

KMG why has he gone straight into year one? Your comments about playground etiquette suggest that he has perhaps been dropped in at the deep end a little in that he hasn't gone through the adjustment from nursery to school that takes place in Reception. Maybe the teacher is expecting too much of him so soon into his school life? I may be totally barking up the wrong tree. DS is only 19 mo so no experience it just struck me when reading your comments.

Bozza - it's the problem of moving Counties with vastly different school start policies. It is complicated, but here's the explanation:

In our old County children go to nursery the term in which they are 4 - so as a July birthday ds went at Easter last year; and school the term after they are 5 - so in this case this September. (Children with Autumn birthdays start school after Christmas, and therefore have two terms of 'reception'. In theory ds was covering 'foundation stage' in nursery, but actually vastly different curriculum to reception here, but also none of all the 'school stuff' to cope with either. So in the old County he would have started school this September too, straight into Year 1 too, but would have been with other new starters and children who had been at school for only 1 or 2 terms.

In our new County all children start nursery in the September when they are 3, i.e. in our case two terms earlier, and all children start school in the September when they are 4 (i.e. in our case a whole year earlier) and have a year in Reception.

He could have gone into Reception here, with children just a couple of months younger than himself - and this would have given him an easier start to 'school life', and may have avoided at least some of the playground-type problems, BUT he is very bright for his age, and it would be extremely difficult for a teacher to motivate him within a Reception curriculum, and therefore might be more likely to have more classroom behavioural problems. (His teacher has told me he's one of the brightest children in the class, and is in the top set for literacy and numeracy. He has a reading age of 8).

Hope that makes it clear Bozza - sorry it's a complicated answer to an apparently simple question!

(I had hoped I would sleep better tonight.)

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Well, teacher hasn't called me over 'for a little chat' after school for a whole week now - which is a huge relief. No more major incidents in the playground.

He's obviously rather unsettled though as he's wet the bed once - can't remember him ever doing that before, and has started having night terrors again, which he hasn't had for a couple of years.

But we seem to be making some progress.

Glad to hear it, KMG. BTW, forgot to say, your description of your son's liking for' special treatment' at school stuck a chord. My son arrived at school a few days late this term, due to our holiday overrunning. He tells me he has a special seat by himself for some lessons, sitting apart from the group tables, because those seats they had all been allocated (oh yes?!). He thinks it's great.