Primary school, MH and classroom discipline

[HathorX]

I think we are all now very aware that about 50% of a school day is not actually spent learning anything! A lot of a Primary teacher's day is spent on crowd control, organising class, discipline and so on.

Some days my DD (y4) would come home very frustrated because the amount of noise and disruption in class meant she got nothing done. She finds it hard to concentrate when there are kids nattering constantly, poking her, stealing her pencils. Her class has a lot of kids in who I would say have discipline issues- kids who literally climb on tables during class, try to climb the walls, throw things, and even run out of the door onto the playground and run around screaming.

Until now, I've advised her to tolerate this and try not to let it get to her.

But having seen how poor her progress has been this year, and how much happier she is since being at home able to concentrate silently on her work, I wonder what will happen when she goes back in September.

Does anyone have any advice? I'm expecting some kids will find it extremely hard to settle back into school. My DD won't (she is a natural rule-taker at school).

But her mental health is going to plummet if she has to put up with extreme poor behaviour and noise and disruption inside class. The quiet, obedient kids are so easily ignored, and I don't want her to be miserable.

Do I pre-empt this and talk to the school or wait until September?

She won’t ever be in a silent classroom.
If she needs silence to work would you be better home schooling her?
Perhaps some of her classmates have SEN issues that you aren’t aware of?
Maybe your daughter does too and you don’t realise?

The teachers will be doing the best they can. What benefit do you expect from talking to them?

Sorry...maybe talk to the school and ask if she could wear noise cancelling headphones for some of the day....but then she wouldn’t hear the teacher, so not ideal?

Why do you think that 50 per cent of the day the children are not learning anything?

Next year she might have a teacher who can keep them in check better.

@FelicityPike, yes I wondered if she has some kind of SEN but I think it is just she is easily distracted and irritated. I know that some of the kids in class have behavioural issues (there have been some suspensions due to poor behaviour, which in primary seems unusual to me), and I'm sorry for those kids. But my daughter needs to be taken into account too, it can't be solely about their needs, can it? She gets upset by endless noise and fuss, and it exhausts her and stops her learning. Because she is well behaved and doesn't lash out, she is always seated next to someone disruptive in the hope she will calm them down. Tables are switched frequently so she gets different kids to calm down, but it is never a child who is like her ie basically happy to do what she is asked to do. She literally dreads going in to school some weeks.

@OhioOhioOhio, well based on how much work the teachers expect the kids to get through during home learning, and from what her teachers have said, they seem to suggest they only get about 2 or 3 hours of academic learning time a day. She is there from 8.45am to 3.30pm, less than half the day is spent on academic work.

It makes sense to me - once you've factor in registrations, assembly, PE, breaktime, getting things out and putting them away whole chunk of time is used up. Choosing books from the school library and checking them back in, going to and from the computer room or art room or hall for activities, etc). Then there are less academic classes like music, art. For most lessons a chunk of time is spent explaining what to do, for the slowest pace and the fastest pace, which isn't always time spent actively learning. From what my daughter says a LOT of time is spent simply waiting for the class to simmer down, with the teacher sitting silently waiting for quiet attention.

50% of the day seems like a fair estimate of time brains are actively engaged in learning activities. (I don't count PE, art or music as they are more about fun, relaxation and health.)

@hedgehogger1 that was kind of the point of my post, I am not sure what to do. Obviously the teachers are going to try to control the disruptive kids as best they can, it is stupid requesting them to try harder. I suspect quiet kids get overlooked as teachers are just grateful for one less trouble maker, and perhaps don't notice the misery it can cause when a child is overwhelmed by disorder and noise.

Her resistance was higher when she was at school, but having had months of breathing space i think she is going to be overwhelmed at school. I suppose I thought the teachers may be able to carve out some phyiscal quiet space for kids who need it, at least for part of the day. The problem is, with class social bubbles and lack of space, I doubt they could accommodate it.

Noise cancelling headphones is a possibility (I did think of it, and DD would probably jump at the chance).

But it wouldn't stop the kid next to her from poking her and trying to steal her work or scribbling on her work or throwing her stuff around and emptying her pencil case on the floor. But perhaps I could request she is not made to sit next to the children who do that. Would that be unreasonable to ask?
Some child has to sit next to the kids who do that all day long; there are at least several of them so perhaps they could all sit together and poke each other?!

“ there are at least several of them so perhaps they could all sit together and poke each other?!”

That would be unbearable as they’d just wind each other up.

You're reasonable to want to talk to the school about your child's education.
There could be a range of issues, for example some children are highly sensitive to normal and reasonable classroom noise and so any chatter is going to be considered as loud, but equally a school not having robust behaviour policies to address poor behaviour can have a negative impact on the class. It's even worse when a classroom teacher is trying to put things in place but isn't backed up by SLT (which happens more often than you think) and worse is undermined by SLT. It sounds in your situation that it's a bit of both. As a teacher, the thing that concerns me is that there's a chance your quiet child is being used as a 'good influence' in the seating plan, which can be an effective strategy if used in conjunction with many other approaches AND strong behaviour management, but it is absolutely awful if the only strategy is 'dump the children who won't behave next to quiet children who won't make a fuss'.

You're wrong to open your post with a pointless generalisation about how 50% of the school day is spent doing nothing.

Why can't people ask questions about their child's situation without bringing in their opinion of a whole sector that's varied and that they don't know enough about to comment on before throwing around silly generalisations on Mumsnet? 🤷‍♀️

If she has a conflict with one particular child it would be reasonable to request she's away from them. If it's the whole class that won't help. Do any other parents think the class is more disruptive than a normal class would be?

You do know that those 'non or less academic' subjects still involve learning right?! They still count towards learning.

Most home learning will take up less time when done 1:1 rather than 1.30 - a lot more of the lesson is spent discussing things, asking questions, gathering answers, explaining things in different ways, etc.

But yes part of the teaching day involved behaviour and classroom management. No classroom is ever going to be silent and calm - that's what happens when you put 30+ children in one room together for hours each day. The teachers will be using tried and tested classroom management techniques I'm sure.

Unfortunately for your child they will need to cope with some chatter and noise or disruption during the school day. I hope you and her can find a way for her to manage and build strategies to deal with it.

However it is reasonable to speak to the teacher if a child is touching her and disrupting her actively in the class as you mention.

If the behaviour's as bad as you say,how about looking for another school?

Although,if they're all going to be working at spaced out tables facing the same way from September, she may find a marked improvement in noise levels and general behaviour.

Your first sentence... why/how do we all know this?

DD is similar, she is often sat next to children who struggle because she is a good role model and every year by about Christmas I have to send an email explaining how it is impacting her to whichever class teacher she has.

We are hopeful that she might get in to (and get a bursary) the girls school for yr7, smaller and calmer classes. It is academic but with a good pastoral system.

Have you considered home education? It doesn’t suit all children or all situations but your daughter sounds like an ideal candidate.

We took ds out in June of year 4 and home educated him until the end of primary. Our reasons were different to yours but it worked well.