Another 'Which secondary school?' thread

[sugarbum]

We have 6 or so months yet to decide. But then we've been agonising over this for years and we still haven't come to a decision.

Honestly I'm just writing this down so its somewhere. DH and I don't really agree on it. We want whats 'best' for DS2, but 'whats best' isn't necessarily the same thing in our heads. DH thinks school A is 'best'.

So we already have DS1 in school A. DS2 would be highly likely to get into school A if it was 1st choice because of a) points based on religious attendance (see below) and b) sibling. They only accept 1st choice applications.
The allocations have been published for this year for school B today, and going by this year, DS2 would also be highly likely to get into B. (catchment plus he's already in catchment primary)
If we put school B as first and he didn't get in, he would be placed in school C. We really really don't want him in school C for lots of reasons.

School A is the best performing school in the region (Its also partially selective, although DS1 didn't get in on that - he got in because we've been attending church for donkeys years in order to get him in. We are not religious - I understand some peoples views on this but the religion aspect isn't really relevant here - I'm just saying so you know how we got him in)
Its quite some distance away. The children attending are spread far and wide as there is no catchment. DS1 gets a train every day after we drop him at the station, then walks for 10 minutes to school. He's ok with this now, and quite likes the independence. He has a core group now of 5 other friends, and it is a pain that his friends are so far away, but he's not particularly sociable and makes no attempt to see them during holidays although we offer to take him. Would he try if they were in our town? Probably/possibly. I do feel bad about this. But to be fair, he wasn't that attached to his primary school friends and never really saw them out of school at the time.
Its very academic. Its very 'old school' Feels like a private school to me (I went to one) Its facilities in general seem fairly poor (based only on my one visit on open evening) Its quite strict. Homework is also old school (on paper) There are some after school clubs but DS1 isn't even vaguely interested in doing anything extra. He is pretty intelligent, but lazy - I have to constantly prompt him to do his homework - he only wants to play on his computer at home. I think he could do better than he is doing if he could be arsed but I'm pleased with his progress still. They push him here, which is what he needs.
He is happy there, and said he wouldn't go to school B now even if he could.

School B is local, and either a bus or bike ride away. Its middling on the performance front. Its much bigger, and the facilities are better and a bit more up to date. All homework done online. Loads of after school clubs. There is a teacher retention problem. This is our biggest worry. We hear plenty of tall tales from other children about what they get away with in class. Consistency is poor, as it has been in our primary, and DS2 gets very upset when they aren't 'learning properly'. ie teachers are missing, or not teaching new things.

DS1 and DS2 are like chalk and cheese. Theres 3 years between them. DS1 detests his brother sadly, and really doesn't want him at school B.
DS2 is a self starter, and is both very intelligent and very creative and does like to be the centre of attention (ie can be a bit of a show off, whereas DS1 is quiet). Being popular is very easy for him in the safety of his primary school (one class per year. so small)
He wants to go to the school his friends will probably be at (school B) and not the school his brother will be at. I don't trust DS1 to 'look after' him.

I think that he will do well wherever he goes but that he will be a little more - protected? at a place where he has his current friendship group ie school B.
His very best friend since he was 4 is a girl. His close group of friends are all girls and he's always had more of an affinity with girls, although he is friends with boys too, and his interests are less traditionally 'male'. I just know I'm going to offend someone saying that. Basically, he marches to his own beat. Always has. And he has lived in his safe little bubble since he was a toddler. Obviously secondary school is a massive shock for any child. School B comes across as a bit more inclusive for children like him. I want him to retain his individuality. (This is to do with his character, not how he dresses)

So in my heart, I think I've already applied for school B first. Educationally though, he will have more opportunity and less distraction at school A. I also don't want DS1 to feel 'overshadowed' by his brother, he's doing so well in his own 'place'. It might be better to keep them separate.

Sorry for the essay. Its that whats 'best' for him question that I'm struggling with.

If it's a state school they won't know whether you put them as first choice or not, so they can't 'only accept first choice applications'. They may have said to put them first to be sure, as if you put a different school first then obviously you might get that one!

If you and he think B would suit dc2 better, go for it.

I don't know the answer but would say remember school isn't just about education.
Socialisation sounds as if it's more important for ds2 than ds1 are you prepared for 5 years of transporting ds2 to ensure he has a social life.
Does ds2 have a preference and can he articulate why he has said preference.
Also when children go up to secondary schools the vast majority spread their wings and find new friendship groups so although this may feel a very important factor now 6 months after starting it may not be.

Well, on paper school A is best. Does that mean it will suit DS2? I would really discount what his brother thinks. They are not in the same year group and paths will rarely cross so what some new little y7 thinks or does is largely irrelevant in a secondary school. I’m not sure who detests who, but don’t pander to that and sibling rivalry. If DS1 can get himself to school, so can DS2.

However, best for DS2 might well be B. I would be concerned about the retention of teachers and you know it’s not great. Writing homework means a lot to me but you like typing presumably. Do they actually teach that or is it two finger plonking away?

Friendships mean a lot to some DC. However new friends come along at secondary and primary friendships can wane. How important moving with other primary DC will be is a moot point. I don’t agree that secondary is scary. If you think it is, then obviously going with the primary heard is important. If you think DS 2 is robust, and would benefit from more DC with greater ability, then A sounds better.

I liked my DDs to do lots besides academics. If DS1 has homework and a lengthy journey home, is this preventing him doing clubs? This seems a shame and there might be more fun at B.

If B could ensure decent teaching, then I would say B. You also have to weigh up chances of B. If you hadn’t pulled the religious card for A, where would DC go? School C? How many years would DC have got into B from your address? Every year? Just last year? If it’s really rare, then it has to be A. If it’s more or less guaranteed, then B.

thank you for responses.

yes, you're right jackparlabane. To be more clear, although they can't check, you have to submit supplementary applications or they won't even consider it, and they are super-heavily subscribed (and have been for decades) with only 75 places available based on our only criteria (religious application) ie. there's not a chance in hell of getting in unless you pick it as first choice, and even then its slim pickings.

Butterly02 I know you're right about spreading wings. I'm also conscious that its not just DS2 that will change, its his friends. The girls are tending to mature quicker (based on the kids of all my friends, who are same age as DS1) and I worry about how this will work out with DS2. He very much wants to go to School B. But he has always had these close friends, and DS1 was never like that. I do think there is a much higher chance of DS2 needed to be ferried around though for his social life.

Bubbles buddy, lots of points there to think about.
Yes, school A is better on paper. DS2 loves learning and I think it will give him more to chew on so to speak. There isn't a huge amount of extra curricular stuff though - mostly sports - and he isn't in the slightest bit sporty. He loves art and crafts and music. He is much more likely to want to attend extra things than is brother, who just isn't interested in the slightest (he doesn't mind sport, he is in one of our local football teams, but he wouldn't volunteer for the school team)

Homework I actually prefer the old fashioned way, especially with maths subjects, but its more convenient for the kids to do it online. I don't think they are taught to actually type though.

I don't really know if DS2 is robust. He lives in a safe bubble right now. That's what I mean about secondary being scary. Our primary is small with one class per year, and two minutes from home in, what I'd class as a very safe area. B is 10 times the size. A is 4 times the size.
He is far more confident than DS1 and I suspect he will be fine at either school and make friends quickly. I just feel that he will be more 'himself' at school B. I could be entirely wrong.

The weighing up chances thing is also tricky. He would have gotten in this year, but not last year. There are a lot more houses (new builds) this year though within catchment. Whether or not they have Y5 children in them is not something I know :)
DC1 would have gotten into B - it was our 2nd choice.

there's not a chance in hell of getting in unless you pick it as first choice, and even then its slim pickings.

No that's not correct at all. You'd be submitting the supplementary form regardless of whether you put it first or second - the school STILL HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING THEYRE YOUR SECOND CHOICE if they are.

As titchy says, the idea that they only consider first choices is not correct. That is not how allocations work.

They do not know where you put them on your list, and even if they managed to find out, it MUST NOT be taken into consideration.

The only time your ranking is relevant is if you would be offered a place by more than one school on your list. Then it is used to ensure you get the offer from the school you rank highest.

Put the schools in genuine order of desire. Putting school A second behind B does not reduce your chances of being offered it if school B doesn't offer you a place.

I would choose school A, but I do understand your doubts. The thing is, you have to project DS2 into the future and not make a decision based on who he is today. If the teaching in school B is not as good and DS2 loves learning, how will he feel in Y9 or 10? Also, worst of cases, you can put him in waiting list in school B if it doesn't work after a couple of years, but not the other way round. So definitely school A. Your son sounds like that he will become a bright, confident, sociable and eager to learn student soon. Where do you see that person in 3 years time? He needs a challenge.
My two cents anyways.

There really is no way that he can be discriminated against by not listing the first school as first choice. You need to list them in your genuine order of preference.

Where does he want to go?

I suspect A may be better academically, but B will be much better socially.

Unless the academics at B are so poor that you want to avoid them, I would go for school B. I went to a school that sounds a bit like your School A. I came out with stellar results, but I struggle socially and with self esteem. My children go to something that sounds a bit like your school B :) The benefits of the extra time (shorter journey) and having easily accessible friends are hard to quantify.

I'd be wary of focusing too much on the sort of people they are today. For example, it's normal to socialise more at secondary school than at primary school and I suspect distance plays a very large part in DC1 not seeing his friends out of school so much. It possibly also factors into his lack of desire to do after school clubs (he has a long day anyway).

I doubt that they would see each other much at school so that shouldn't be a factor. I think having friends is useful in the first few weeks/months as you can go in feeling more settled, but beyond that DS2 will likely find new friends.

Homework - I think the trend is for online, so don't suppose school A will stick with paper homework for much longer.

Many DC go to very large secondary schools of 2000 plus DC from tiny village schools. So hopefully they should have excellent transition and settling in arrangements. The other advantage is: look at the opportunities for new friends fairly close to home. Most children make the best of these situations.

As you cannot be sure about your chances for B, you can still try and order it first. There may be fewer DC in that cohort. It sounds like the after school activities would be great for him.

I would choose B. I think it's really sad not to live close to your friends when you are young, but maybe I'm old fashioned.

I also find it a bit weird to send your dc to a religious school (and for you to fake being religious for several years) if you are not of that religion.
I went to a religious school and although I was brought up in that religion (at home and at church and at school) I wasn't and am still not religious, although I respect people who are, and obviously I know all about it culturally.
I would find it strange to be taught one thing at school and know that my parents didn't actually believe it when I got home. Would make me assume my parents were hypocrites (then when I was older I would understand they were hypocrites with sharp elbows).
Sorry, obviously you don't agree with me op, but that would be the second reason I would send dc2 to school A (the first being local friends).
You seem more protective over dc2 than dc1 so maybe that's why you want to keep him closer?

This is tricky.

My dc went from primary with 15 per year to high school with 1600 no problem. If the pastoral care is good it shouldn't be a problem.

I think living locally is important for quality of life however I think you need to balance it with the potential issues at school B. Personally I don't rate headline exam results as it doesn't tell you how your child would do there and mostly reflects the ability and social circumstances of the intake. Teacher retention is a concern this could really affect achievement.

I would tour school B not on an Open Day. Check for discipline in classes and corridors, noise levels, uniform adherence.

Good luck.

Unless academic performance is terrible then I would probably choose B, especially because if you've got an A school almost creaming off the families seeking a traditional academic education then that will have a knock on effect on other local schools.
However, the main worry I would have for B is teacher retention. If it's staff leaving after a couple of years then that wouldn't bother me as such, but lots of staff leaving after one year there, lots of cover teachers throughout the year then that would probably rule out School B for me.

They only accept 1st choice applications.
If it's a state school they don't find out. It's a lie told by some schools.
I'm not sure what supplementary forms they require but surely you'd be doing them regardless of your preferences as the school don't get told who is first/second/third preferences etc.

We had a similar dilemma last year. After looking round both schools, we let our DS choose where he felt happiest (the primary school had done a fair amount of transition). It's not the most popular choice locally as it's in a fairly poor area & has stiff competition from a more high achieving one in an affluent area close by.
However, 6 months in he's doing well, made new friends, on a few sports teams & we're happy with the choice. My DD is due to choose soon & again I'll let her choose which one will suit her best. As another poster said, school isn't just about education.

The comment about first choice probably is misleading shorthand to say that they are over subscribed. They must give places according to their admissions policy which is not based on where the school is placed on the form. However they could be their own admissions authority and therefore have their own form. Even so, they wouldn’t know if parents rank them above or below other schools. They simply see the applications for their own school.

Don’t for the love of God send your kid to a school just because his (current) friends are going there. 10 year olds are not mature enough to make that kind of decision and friends now may well not be friends in three years’ time. Particularly if there’s a big gap in academic ability/aspiration/application - you need to do what’s best for your son, and not be guided by what is a good fit for his mates. Or for that matter, what his brother thinks.