In defence of the state Grammar School

[boredorboard]

I get so fed up of the standard rhetoric on Mumsnet that state Grammars are exam hothouses with no extra curriculars and you have to be a robust child to survive because there is no pastoral care and staff are so overworked with no budget they do nothing to help their pupils.

I appreciate that no one school is the same as any other but I want to defend the state Grammar my 3 DC go to...

We are in a wholly selective county so approx the top 25% of ability go to Grammars and the other 75% go to a secondary modern (no comprehensives here). The Grammar social make up is truly wide, approx 20% come from Preps (as mine did) and parents range from Oxbridge educated professionals to manual workers and everything in between. There is a Young Carers programme

The school is co-Ed, has boarders (who also must pass the 11plus) and is around 509 years old so has a good number of school traditions.

Academically it is strong but in no way a hothouse. There are extra literacy lessons and maths sets for those who struggle a bit.. Dyslexics and.Sen pupils are supported and do will. Pupils aim for Oxbridge, Russell Group but also art subjects and apprenticeships.

Teachers run a whole host of clubs. There is CCF and DofE. Fantastic £3k holidays if you can afford them and an annual ski trip. I should point out that the area isn't particularly affiluent. There are areas of deprivation in catchment.

There are amazing music opportunities, a touring orchestra for the most able and other bands and groups for the developers. Struggling to think of a sport that isn't offered and there are fixtures for all years against the local independent schools. Amazing art facilities and regular drama productions.

Sorry for the long essay. I thank my lucky stars that my DC go to this particular school. I will admit that we couldn't afford £15-20k per year per child for the local independents but even if we could I struggle to see the value add of them.

So to counter all the anti-state posts on Mumsnet, tell me about your state Grammar school?

I mean this is all great for the top 25%....

Completely agree it is a very unfair system but we live in a selective county and so this is the system we have to deal with. Not a thread about selective v non-selective though.

Underfunded, not very good class control, some teachers are a little traditional and uninspiring, poor SEN support. Very competitive and easy to lose sight of the fact that just because some of your classmates are heading for all 9s, having a mixture of 7, 8s and 9s is still exceptionally good.

Is that more what you mean?

Ultimately all schools are different and suit different children. Despite its failings my child in the Grammar is happy there. It is great that you are happy with your child's school. Sounds a lot like the non-Grammar one of my other dc goes to.

I appreciate that but I don't think most people have a problem with these schools being academic hot houses, which I understand is your qualm. There are however, lots of people who have an issue with how difficult these schools are to get into because so many people want a space in a well performing state school.

These schools often attract well off parents who often come from prep schools or have money to tutor their kids to get in. Once the kids are in they're not anymore likely to be a hothouse than an academy down the road or the independent. These well off parents can also fund great PTAs that in turn help support amazing facilities these schools often have.
The selective vs non selective argument is as long as a piece of string. These schools being labelled as hot houses directly relates the whole selective v non selective argument because it proves that these schools have great facilities and could be just as successful with a normal cohort.

I am not bashing at you at all, your position in the argument is geographically chosen. However I want to reiterate that not many people think these schools are hot houses with no facilities. The process to get into them however is crazy, and the pressure in KS4 as in most schools, is immense.

"Dyslexics and.Sen pupils are supported"

That is not my experience and as a result we will not be entering my child for the 11plus - we live in a grammar school area.

My experience is that it is fine for those who can cope in a big class those who are self starters and do not much in the way of support

My thread was written as a reaction to the "scholarship or grammar?" Thread that is currently running. I didn't want to derail that for the Op.

I failed the 11+ and attended a terrible secondary modern. Luckily (and with hindsight it really was more luck than judgment) I moved for sixth form and ended up at a good university. You really don't need to tell me how unfair the 11+ system is.

I wasn't intending a selective v non-selective argument or a state v independent argument. More let's celebrate the great Grammar schools that do exist! Of course not all Grammar schools are great In the same way that not all other schools are great. I was just getting a bit fed up of the way Mumsnetters often spout negative rubbish about them with no first hand experience!

@Malmontar hits the nail on the head for me. It’s the getting in system not being fair that’s more of an issue imho. In terms of what grammars are like, they can vary as much as any other school. Of the three I have experience of, one was a hothouse with little to no emotional support for its pupils, some of whom crumbled under the pressure. One just cared about the ‘grammar school’ label and results, behaviour was poor and it coasted along on its name. The third was brilliant, with extracurricular galore (including fab curriculum days, career-focused activities, and amazing trips), and was sensible enough to realise that if the students and staff were adequately supported throughout then the good results would follow.

The Grammar social make up is truly wide
What's the proportion of disadvantaged children?

I really don't think it's wise to make a thread coming from a position of privilege and than say you don't want this Vs this thread. It is great that your kids are in a school that suits them and you, but it is not fair to use that to try to change the reputation of grammars. Just because you have successfully benefitted from them doesn't mean they're good and you were lucky enough to come across a good one you could access. As originally mentioned, your kids went to a prep and then beat 75% others to get in, that is a position of immense privilege. There are tons of parents of smart kids that don't even know how to apply to grammars or that they even exist. Also crazy to say SEN kids are catered for. Even once they get in its very rare they get adequate support. As I said before, it is as long as a piece of string.

Again, I'm not trying to slate you, I just don't think it's very wise to make a post like this and than argue that you don't want this to be a v Vs v type of thread.

I get so fed up of the standard rhetoric on Mumsnet that state Grammars are exam hothouses with no extra curriculars and you have to be a robust child to survive because there is no pastoral care and staff are so overworked with no budget they do nothing to help their pupils.

I don't think I have every really seen this as 'standard rhetoric' on MN.
The hothouse bit yes in the super selectives, but not the rest.

Ds is autistic and year 11 at a state grammar. He's a bright boy who gained his place without any formal tutoring.

It's been an utterly dreadful experience for him. My bright child no longer wants to learn. He's been bullied and picked on not only by his peers but also some staff. Support was lacking until we really pushed and there is now a little help.

I am sure that grammar schools do work well for some but in our experience if your child happens to not fit the school's 'norms' then it's unlikely to be a positive experience.

I could almost have written your opening most myself @boredorboard. My 2 DS' are at a state grammar and are very happy there. We are not a fully selective county in fact there are only 4 grammar schools and the school is 20m away. There are some fantastic comprehensives nearby but they are selective on the basis of religion so we don't qualify- another unfair element to our education system. In fact I reckon most good schools will be 'selective' in some way even if it's purely down to house prices near good schools.

I agree the system for entry to grammar schools can be manipulated by tutoring and support any efforts to get more disadvantaged children in. I am keen for the boys to develop relationships with people from a wide range of backgrounds and not just those who can afford independent schools.

However I want them see that's it's cool to be clever and to learn new things and not have their time wasted by disruptions in class.

We have to work within the system as it is for our kids going through school now but I would like to see it change to provide more opportunities for those with less supportive home lives.

As with any school different kids will suit different schools and not every clever kid will be happy in any grammar school so it is still important when choosing schools to visit and determine as best you can how your child would fit it.

It's been an utterly dreadful experience for him. My bright child no longer wants to learn. He's been bullied and picked on not only by his peers but also some staff. Support was lacking until we really pushed and there is now a little help.

That happens in state comps too! Nothing at all to say he wouldn't suffer the same at your local alternative schools.

We have to work within the system as it is for our kids going through school now but I would like to see it change to provide more opportunities for those with less supportive home lives.

Realistically, the only alternative is for "bright" kids to be identified during primary school for admittance into the grammar, rather than the 11+ test, but that also has it's unfairness, i.e. kids who the primary teacher doesn't like, and kids whose parents/HT at their primary school. It's already bad enough with nepotism as to it always been staff's children getting the best parts in plays etc - it'd be no different if they had a say in which primary pupils went to the grammar.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time at a single sex Grammar.
I was pushed to get the highest qualifications I could (something I am grateful for) but also had the opportunity for many extra curriculars.

I went to a local comp for one subject for one year and the standard of teaching and learning (its isn't cool to try too hard when you are 16) was completely different and I dropped down 2 grades.

It's great that you have the option of a coed grammar. There's not a single one in reach of us. This was a big part of the reason we chose bursary over grammar. Seems crazily anachronistic in this day and age to have no coed grammar options in a fully selective county.

DD and DS are both autistic and both at the same state grammar. It has a brilliant SEND department (probably partly because the percentage of kids with SN is low and most of them have HFA) and also very good pastoral care.

The system isn't fair though. There are very few kids who qualify for free school meals and plenty from well off families.

I just want to say my children attended the most marvellous state comprehensive school ... so it is poss to find a good one.

I always remember my days living in Bucks seeing 2 girls, a little older than me crying ... they were best friends and one passed the eleven plus and one failed and would be split up forever. Another child was hothoused with coaching pre eleven plus to try and get him in no idea whether he succeeded but all the parents thought his parents were awful as the boy wasnt that bright but they were so desperate they wouldnt accept it.

All kids from my daughter's prep school who ended up at either Latymer or Dame Alice Owen absolutely love their schools. I think there is a lot of unfair prejudice against grammar schools and in favour of independents (which by no means operate a system of meritocracy) on mumsnet!

OP - I almost started a thread on this myself after reading that thread you are referring to on the Secondary Education board. The thread is entitled "Grammar vs independent?" so all the talk about the unfairness of the selection process in grammars doesn't really apply when posters were all advocating to send kids to independent schools instead and grammars were painted some awful scary colours.

Thanks @XelaM I'm normally happy to be a lurker but that thread really wound me up. Some of the comments about grammar schools were just so misinformed. Of course no school (not even the mighty Eton) is perfect but as the general wisdom on here goes - choose the school that suits your child, whatever that school may be!

DDs single sex grammar was very good - we chose it rather than the best of the indies available in our area, after she managed to pass the 11+ well enough to get a residual place (we live in a true comp area with only 4 GSs in the whole county and none in our city.

Single sex GS can be perfect for a nerdy girl. She did electronics and comp sci among her GCSEs - they had 2 sets for the latter. Loads doing further maths, a decent number A level physics. The school was good for the other subjects too, and didn't push girls into STEM (as some are accused of) - they didn't need to.

I'm not rabidly anti SS, but it just seems weird to me to have an entire grammar system with no possibility of choice. Around here, you can either choose selective or you can choose coed - not both.

And sorry OP that you found the other thread annoying. Speaking personally, I'm honestly not anti grammar - we very, very nearly decided to take the grammar place, and the school we were offered is fantastic in many ways. And of course I can't very fairly compare (as I acknowledged on the other thread) because I haven't directly experienced having a child at grammar (although I did go to one myself, but that was a million years ago). But the (few) things that the people I know in DS's year criticise about their grammar schools (chiefly that there's too much focus on assessment, that only the best kids can get near the sports teams, and that cover teaching can be patchy) is something that (again, only in our experience) an independent can have the resource to avoid.

"approx 20% come from Preps" compared so something like 7% nationally. Hardly proportionate.

I'm glad your children are having a good time at school but it's a horribly unfair and divisive system overall. The country as a whole would be better off if they didn't exist.