Do I push my son to prep for grammar?

[bingowingsmcgee]

Ds age 9 is very bright and his teachers have indicated that he is grammar school 'material'. His cousin goes to the local grammar school, and we always planned that we would tutor ds and he would hopefully follow suite. However now it's come to prep time, he doesn't really want to do the prep or have the tutoring. He is hugely gregarious and wants to go the local comp with his friends, which is 'good' according to ofsted but poor with lots of behaviour issues according to local parents. I have no idea what to do for the best for him. Do we push him to prepare and sit the test in order to buy time, with him resenting it? Or do we just let him go to the fairly crappy comp and hope the top sets have enough decent kids in to get their gcse content covered?

As you have a local grammar school I assume you are in a grammar/secondary modern area? In that case I'd encourage a bright child to try for grammar.
I'm in a county (Surrey) with no state grammars. From their primary school, one went private, one went to a faith school further afield (both children average ability) and everyone else went to one of the good local comps, which have the full range of ability. It's been good for my children, but in a grammar county we'd have tried for grammar

He is hugely gregarious and wants to go the local comp with his friends
What are his best friends doing - is his assertion/assumption that they are going to the Comp correct? (Obviously you ask parents, not DC)

I very much doubt he would be able to get into The Grammar unless he’s motivated to . You can only push so much, it really has to come from him

If he’s bright then tbh he should be fine at the comp. Just make sure his friends really are going to the comp through. We used to live in a grammar school area and parents can be v cagey about future prospects when they know another bright kid in the mix is competition! I bet there’s already a bit of tutoring going on and in two years time you’ll
hear comments like ‘oh we thought we’d give the test a whirl’.
I can recall kids having up to three years of tutoring so bear it mind it’s a shark pool
Out there!

If he is v bright he will be in all top sets if he goes to the local comp so may still do well and be happy at the local comp.
At 10 my DS wanted to go to the GS he looked round and favoured it over our local fairly good comp.
Having said that he wasn’t particularly motivated to cram to get into the GS 25 miles away as oppose to the comp a mile away but he did some practice papers a few weeks before his 11 plus and got a really good score. The decision for him was also helped that his two best friends were also sitting the 11 plus. I had several discussions with him playing devils advocate about his much longer school days, probably more homework, how competitive classes were likely to be and how socially he may suffer as he would have very few friends living locally if he went to the GS etc. At 10 he seemed mature enough to accept all this and argue his choice for going to the GS so we let him go. So he is now in year 11 at GS, happy, doing well and loves the school and the friends he has made there. It was definitely the right choice for him academically and he has a lot of friends at school from different areas and different backgrounds but socially he doesn’t see many of his friends out of school compared to his Primary peers who opted to attend the local comp. Our younger less academic DD opted for the local comp and after a shaky start with low level bullying she also seems happy and to be doing ok there.
I guess what I am saying is don’t push too hard as your DS is likely to push against you things could change by the time he is 10 and if he is bright he should still get in without working his socks off. As my DS has a much longer school day than DD I wouldn’t have liked the fall out combined with teenage moods if we had pushed him into the GS.

umm. Is it a 'local comp' or is it a 'local secondary modern'?

ie What % of kids in your area go to grammar?

The potential problem with the grammar-secmod model is that if say 25% kids go to grammar that is like taking the top 2 sets off an 8 form entry school. These kids are intended/likely to be amongst the clever kids.
This may mean that in the secmod school there aren't sufficient kids available to do things like

• run triple science at GCSE
• allow for 2 MFL at GCSE
• enter maths Olympiad type contests.

Now, in a true comp these can still all happen as they take across the ability spectrum.

So in your situation I'd look at the academic offer of the 'comp' and check it is truly comprehensive. If it isn't then I'd definitely push prepping for 11+ if you think your child is academic enough.

I agree with PP re wondering where his friends will really be going. I bet a number of them take the 11+ with/without external tutoring.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/find-a-school-in-england

Have you looked at the attainment and progress score of the school on there?

I think, as mentioned above, you need to clarify whether the comp is actually a comp rather than a secondary modern. Are you actually in a grammar area or just an area with a grammar school? Because if you live in a GS area then the brightest kids will be going there which may mean less academic rigour at the comp. However, if the school is a true comprehensive then it will of course have lots of bright, keen and motivated children. Having said all that, don’t let him choose based on where his mates are going. He’ll undoubtedly make new friends in the first couple of weeks anyway.

Thanks for all the comments they're really helpful. We live close to a grammar area, but my son actually goes to a primary two towns away, so all of his mates will definitely be going to the average high school that their primary feeds, because they're too far away to stand a chance, whereas we're much closer. (sorry, it's a weird situ!) So no none of his close friends will be going to grammar, but rather harshly ds probably won't get in their local high school because we're not in the catchment. So it seems like wherever he goes he won't be with his friends anyway. From what he's said, it sounds like he just doesn't want to work as hard as a grammar would require, and I suppose I'm wondering whether to go with or against that? So do I accept that he's not suficiently studious to thrive in grammar, or do I try and make him more studious somehow or kind of tell him it's tough and he has to study hard, end of. ?? I'm just at a loss.

He's quite an anxious kid, quite sensitive even though he's socially confident IYSWIM, so maybe his mental health would be better with less pressure, but maybe that's a cop out and I should accept that I'm going to have to spend a lot of energy pushing him but it'll pay off? Oh I'm driving myself round the bend going round in circles with it!

I know a few children that have got into grammar just by doing a few practice papers. Speed is a big thing in the CEM entrance exams so I really wouldn't send a child in with no practice at all. But it really is possible for a bright child to get in without vast amounts of tutoring.

Some tutor places will assess children for their suitability. Not sure how unbiased they are! Also some of the prep books have tests in them to help you decide if they're suitable.

I "tutored" my 2 myself successfully so if you need any more info shout. My DD was v motivated, my DS less so!

We are in a grammar school area and DS2 was definitely 'grammar material'. He didn't want to go for it so we didn't bother. His GCSE results this year (at the local state school) were exceptional and would not have bettered by a grammar education.
So if your child really doesn't to do the prep then personally I wouldn't make him - just continie togive all the necessary support at the school he goes to.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats I’m guessing then that your son went to a comprehensive rather than a secondary modern. The problem with SMs in a full grammar area is that the top academic stream of kids have gone to a different school meaning a very bright child may be out on a limb in that situation. In a comprehensive school there would be lots of other bright kids to bounce off of.
OP, lack of motivation at 9 does not mean lack of motivation at 12, 14 or 16yrs. If you’re in a GS area and the other option is a SM then I’d prep him for the test. You can always change your mind when he’s 11.

TheWaiting

Interesting points - I hadn't actually realised that Secondary Moderns were still a thing.
Having now read your previous post I would agree that if the OP's choice is Grammar or a duff Secondary Modern type school my advice might be different.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats, yes, some areas with GSs run these alongside comprehensives but in other grammar school areas there are two schools. Children take the 11+ and that will determine which of the two schools they will attend. The LA will write to each set of parents informing them which of the two schools their child has been allocated. It’s horrible and divisive and causes under achievement in bright children who either weren’t yet mature enough to pass (often they’d have easily passed at 12)

Sorry... or those who have never had exposure to the test format.
Grammar areas where comprehensives run alongside GSs tend to be more affluent areas and many bright kids still opt for the comp, either because they can walk, their friends are all going or their parents disagree with the grammar system. Their prospects are very different from a bright child who lacks parental support and ends up at a SM.

If he’s bright then tbh he should be fine at the comp.

Just about the worst advice. I was "bright" at primary, top of the class, straight A student. I went to the "local comp". 5 years later, I crashed out without a single qualification. Then I basically had to teach myself (evening classes etc) to get some qualifications alongside a full time crap job. The comp completely ruined my teen years and caused MH problems long into adult life. A crap comp can cause untold damage. At the very least, you need to look at the ofsted report (a proper read of the report, not just the headline/score), take advice from other parents, go to open days with your eyes open etc. Some comps are fine, some are really crap, whatever ofsted says.

There isn’t much evidence that bright children don’t do well at many of the secondary moderns where I live. We are a grammar county but the best secondary moderns have better results than many comps in fully comp areas. They can achieve more than 60% 9-5 grades in 5 GCSEs including English and maths. Some also have over 30% high achieving DC. So they are not schools full of failures. The vast majority of parents I know with DCs at the secondary moderns fully support the schools and DC have done exceptionally well. The pace is slower and they do have a bit of time to mature. What’s wrong with that? A few parents think DCs must be at the Grammars but they do not necessarily do better. In my village, the over tutored have not been great at the Grammars but the secondary modern DC have all (I repeat all) done better in exams and university destinations.

user1497207191 - children attending both GS and conprehensive schools can have issues with MH and bullying or whatever. Whilst DS is doing v well at GS and seems to be absolutely thriving on the pressure a few less bright kids who scraped into GS have a number of issues and aren’t having the best time. One of DS’s best friends bowed out of GS in year 7 as he couldn’t cope. So kids can do well or less well at either school.

I volunteered in a "good" secondary modern and I wouldn't recommend it for a bright student. The top set maths class had at least half the class who were aiming for a C at GCSE. There were at least 5 in the class who sat bored in every lesson. I also tutor students who transfer from sec Mod to Grammar and despite often being very bright they're always massively behind the grammar students in terms of fluency (despite good understanding their algebra is slow, times tables are known but not as quickly, they're completely unaccustomed to being stretched). This kind of disadvantage takes years to develop and years to catch up from.

There's no harm in taking the test and giving him the decision later.

@TheWaiting

I live in Kent and absolutely no middle class family opts for the comps over grammars. People have remortgaged their house to pay for private after failing the 11+. It's not at all uncommon for kids to commute an hour on the train to go to grammar. The "Comps" here (really secondary moderns) have very few students getting 7 grades at GCSE and almost none getting higher. When I trained as a teacher because I have a top degree and PhD I was explicitly told I would be wasted in a non grammar. I said specifically that I'd like to have the experience there as part of my training and was told "there's no point you'll never have to teach in one". I did in fact do a voluntary role in a secondary modern and while some of the teachers were amazing the skilled needed were crowd control and they often didn't have staff with a degree in the subject they were teaching - especially in science and maths. Some students do switch from Comp to Grammar after A-level but even with intensive support they're behind their grammar school equivalents.

I still don't think it's very clear from OP's posts, if the non-grammar school her child is likely to get into, is one which has the full range of ability (because the grammar is just 1 which serves a vast geographical area and selects purely based on exam results) or if the non-grammar is essentially a secondary modern with perhaps the lower 75% of ability as the upper 25% of ability have been creamed off into the grammar.

I would disregard the issue about where friends are going, especially if you live far from them and are unlikely to get into the school's they go to anyway.

I would be honest with DS about the likely options where you live and make sure he realises he's not likely to be going to any type of schools with his primary friends anyway, because of where you live. I'd be having a serious chat with him about the realistic options and tell him there's no certainty about getting into grammar anyway but his teachers think he has a chance. Point out that trying and sitting the exam leads to a choice, whereas not sitting it removes any choice.

I'd also talk about preparation involving familiarisation rather than heavy coaching. You or a tutor will need to familiarise yourself with the structure of the exam and make sure he has seen some sample questions and had a chance to do some practice of the different styles and closer to the event, had a go at working in timed conditions. It doesn't have to be intensive prep for hours a week. It could well be an hour a week from Easter or perhaps 12 weeks before the exam if that's what you felt you wanted. You can choose how much you prepare.....but it's worth knowing just how hard to get into your local Grammars are. If they are superselectives which take purely on exam and have zero catchment, then some have 2500 sitting for 80 places. Yourse unlikely to get into those who those with a little light familiarisation. However, if it's an area where 25/30% get to grammar, a bright child who has had some reasonable familiarisation can certainly get in.

FWIW I had a son who was a bit of a resister regarding 11+ prep. He found it tedious and boring (especially maths) and kept saying he wouldn't pass. I was tempted to stop the prep many times because it wasn't fun at at all, but I knew I really wanted him at the grammar. So we struggled through (about 10 months of prep with a tutor and with myself, but taking most of the school holidays off) and the he did the exam and he passed. And now I'm really pleased because he is getting the right kind of education for him. He's not top of the class but not bottom either. He's learning several languages and doing 3 separate sciences and has specialist teachers who have degrees in the subjects they are teaching. He would have been happy at the alternative school too I'm sure, but I do t think he would have done so well.

I think it's possible for most parents to coax their children towards some gentle low-level preparation. You have to go into it knowing they might not get a place anyway, but any maths and English Oreo isn't wasted anyway and the trying is the thing to praise them for, not the results.

I can assure posters that some Bucks secondary moderns have plenty of high achievers and do have top sets roughly equal to the lower sets at the Grammars. Their pupils go to RG universities. They study academic subjects. They are not disadvantaged in any way. Some schools are not so good. However the best secondary moderns are better than many comps. Regularly better than the majority of comps where my DSis lives for example. And that’s a large city. There are many MC parents at the secondary mods here. They definitely don’t all get DC into grammar schools. Instead they support the secondary moderns.

One of my DC's was cleverest kid in the class at primary but refused make any effort whatsoever with the practice papers for Grammar. Years later she told me she thought she would sail through the 11+ without help. She didn't. It was a massive wake up call for her, she was devastated and she promised herself she never wanted to feel that way again and she vowed to never ever fail any exam ever again. I didn't know how bad she felt - she only recently told me. She went to the local Comp and her determination got her the best GSCE and A Level results a pupil at the school had ever got. She also got better results than her primary friends who had gone to on to Grammar. In hindsight she says she should have worked harder and practiced the 11+ papers. I have a different hindsight - I actually believe NOT passing the 11+ was the making of her. I'm not sure she would have been such a shining star at the Grammar as she was at the Comp.

OP if your son wants to go to the local Comp with his mates then perhaps you should back off a bit. He could always apply to go to the Grammar for 6th form. My DD chose to stay at her Comp for A Levels - once again doing the exact opposite of my suggestion of applying to the local Grammar. My DD is very strong willed!

At the end of the day they will get to where they are supposed to be eventually. They just take a different path. A GCSE is a GCSE wherever they take it.