Sending children to Sunday school to get into good secondary

[wildawake]

What are your views on this?

I'm an atheist, I don't want it to be part of my children's life. However there are 2 very good schools in our town. To even have a chance of getting into either, they need to be seen to be attending church on a weekly basis.

I'm so conflicted. Makes me feel very uncomfortable, apparently they don't do much praying it's more crafts etc, but a register is taken which can be used when supporting school applications.

If it was up to me I wouldn't even be considering, however DH thinks I'm being very narrow minded, selfish, holding them back. They are excellent schools, both outstanding.

In my experience for both primary and secondary school application to catholic school, you were further up the admissions criteria if you provided a priests reference. To get the reference you were expected to be 'known' to the priest, ie. recognized as being at Mass on a regular basis, and to get the reference you were invited to meet the Priest and go through the form with him. He was quite happy to refuse to write a reference if he felt you were regular attendees (as a family) at church. (And kids hobbies on a Sunday morning were not an excuse not to attend) So if it's a catholic school, expect to jump through a few hoops, not just rock up at church every now and then.

if he felt you were not* regular attendees - doh!

Will your dh be the one taking them and being involved with the school then? Will he volunteer, so as not to hold them back.

Where i live there are 4 state secondaries, 1 is C of E. All are really good and all are oversubscribed. A lot of people go to church for the required time period for a greater chance of getting into one of them. I go to church (not every week) usually on my own and have done for over 10 years. The minister still wrote a qualifying letter for the church school for my DD when she was applying but we actually chose a different school as our first choice (and got it)

Definitely the child, not the parent that needs to attend

That's against the Admissions Code and needs challenging.

I've worked in 4 different Catholic schools and not one of them have regular church attendance on the admissions criteria. Be prepared for your child possibly 'enjoying' being part of the church community....

I’m an ardent atheist.

I think having faith schools at all in 2019 is the problem. It reduces choice and segregates children on religious (or not) lines. I say ban them all. Then parents and LAs can concentrate on raising standards for all school places.

Have you heard of this campaign pp?

www.nomorefaithschools.org/

I live close to Bolton and my ds2 went to a Catholic Outstanding School because the LA pleaded with them to accept him.
We moved mid term and no place anywhere for him, ds1 was ok and had a place at the community school next door.
People couldn't believe we had got in, so many hoops to jump through including being Christened, having to attend church every week. Parents have to attend church and volunteer and you had to be born in the Parish.
We fit none of the criteria.
Great school, for Catholics, we went on waiting list and he moved the following year, bloody barbaric schools.
I can't stress enough the permanence of religion across the school.
It's the ethos, and as i said, great for Catholics.
I don't think CofE is quite as bad my dd didn't have much of her education tainted by religion and I found the secondary CofE similar.

Oh, meant to say, anybody not familiar with the NW, we do have more than our share of Faith Schools, some easier to access than others.
We have churches, pubs, schools and pie shops. We stumble over cobbled streets and keep pigeons or ferrets.

You don't want it as part of your life, but apparently it's good.
We don't know whether you value your principles, that's for you to decide.

I'm not saying religion is good, opposite in the grand scheme of things imo. However I am not here for an argument on faith. I have none. I don't believe my children do and would prefer them not too. However, these 2 Church of England schools that do require attendance are providing excellent education and producing much better result than the other local non faith school.

School 1

School 2. Not as explicit here but from speaking to locals it's taken quite seriously

Definitely the child, not the parent that needs to attend

That's against the Admissions Code and needs challenging.

There is nothing in the Admissions Code that prevents a school from doing this. It is not normal practice and may go against guidance from their denomination but it is not against the rules as far as I can see.

I did this years ago and never regretted it. At the time, the were articles in the press about 'pushy middle class parents' using Religion to gain an advantage for their dc - it made a change for me as I usually fell into the category of evil single parent whose children where the bane of society.
At the time, the only decent school in my area was a Catholic school in the neighbouring LA. My 2 local schools had appalling results and both were in Special Measures during the time my dd was at Secondary. I drew the line at taking my dd to Catholic Church but we did attend our local C of E and my Priest was happy to write a letter of recommendation to the School stating that my dd was practicing her Faith - he did the same for all the Sunday school dc.
My dd later converted to Catholicism - she made that decision as an adult several years after she left her Catholic High School.
Like a pp said the Catholic schools in my area only ask for proof of Baptism. The Catholic Primary my dgc1 attends has less than 50% Catholic children, and a very similar percentage of Muslim dc. After Faith criteria and siblings the remaining 4 or 5 places per year are taken by dc who live less than 200m from the school.

I'm with your DH on this. Your first responsibility is to your children and if the schools want regular attenders I'd attend. Let's face it, the churches would be near enough empty if it wasn't for this. From the church's point of view the children are learning about a religion which they may decide to embrace. Don't guilt trip.

Also, I think some posters suggesting this is morally wrong don’t really understand that being atheist isn’t a moral decision. It’s merely an absence of belief in god. You can be perfectly accepting of others’ beliefs and indeed agree with many of their moral stances without having to believe in god. So sending your DC to church to get them into a church school, while not believing yourself isn’t morally wrong! Do Christians never have any doubt about their faith? What would you say about them? It’s getting into the realms of thought-crime to call parents, who follow the admission requirements to the letter while being atheists, immoral.

OP there are literally only religious schools around where I live (ROI). There is simply no other choice. So I take all the moralising around atheists sending their children to faith schools with a pinch of salt.

If you are an atheist you should not in any way let other people's beliefs interfere with your trying to do your best for your children. That fact that other people believe in something that you do not believe in does not suddenly confer them with the rights of the best education choices for their children. The fact that religion has permeated heavily into the education system should not mean that families of a different faith or none should have to lose out. When the system is wrong and itself immoral play the cards you are dealt I. The best way you can and ignore other people's pontificating.

Thank you so very much. Most of your replies have helped me find peace with this x

Mostly you need to be in catchment. Church attendance is usually right down the bottom of list for admission. It usually goes:
Looked after children/ECHP
Sibling in catchment
In catchment
Sibling out of catchment
Church attendance
Others.

I would have no qualms about this and I would tell my DC exactly why I was doing it. I do not understand why people say it is morally wrong.

Running costs for religious schools are met from general taxation. So if you are a tax payer you are paying for them. So why should you be last in the queue for a school you are funding just because you do not adhere to their particular brand of religion? Isn’t that the immoral aspect of all this?

IMO if religious groups want their own schools they should set up private schools.

Mostly you need to be in catchment. Church attendance is usually right down the bottom of list for admission.

It varies widely. All the schools around here prioritise church kids over distance, and many have no defined catchments.

Please be careful.

What happens 'mostly' is not relevant

What is relevant is the wording of the entrance criteria for the specific schools, and the wording of the Supplementary Information Form used to attest participation in religious activities. Please make sure you look at both these documents you know exactly what needs to be done and for how long to get in to the faith category you think you need to be in to be reasonably sure of an offer.

As a church-going Christian (married to an atheist), I have absolutely no issues with you doing this, but you need to be prepared for the consequences!

Most children’s church groups will discuss biblical stories in the context of big issues. Most groups tread carefully on this, but your child will be introduced to ideas that may not have been discussed at home (and probably won’t have been dealt with in school RE lessons). For example, I always remember the discussion we had at lunch about creation after I started taking my kids to church more regularly (for exactly the same reason as you!). My husband took the scientific aspect, and I tried to explain what Genesis was saying (i don’t believe it literally but it does give some interesting insights when you know when / why it was written). If you just close down that conversation it may be difficult for your DC - they’re being made to sit somewhere for an hour listening to someone who you tell them is talking nonsense.

Just to tell you my experience with this - I was a believer but VERY irregular churchgoer who started attending to get my daughter into a church school. We sat there on the first Sunday and DD said very loudly “So mummy, we have to come here every 2 weeks for the next 2 years?”

She got into the school, which has been great for her, and which has a very high percentage of Muslim pupils so is diverse despite being a C of E church school. And I’m thinking of training for lay (non-ordained) ministry!

No problems with this whatsoever.
This is a state school, that your taxes have funded. You have every right to apply for a place there.

I'm not going to add anything except maybe think about what happens when your child gets to the desired school. At a church school there is likely to be an emphasis on religion during the school day, religious assemblies and the like. You would need to feel happy about this