UK education system bottom ranking

[coulis272]

So I have a question

Is the education system in the UK really that bad when compared with say the likes of Spain, France, Italy, Greece etc? I have had several individuals from these specific countries say to me that they absolutely abhor the schooling system here and the children learn absolutely nought. How there is far more actually taught in said countries and you would have a child of the same age know four or five times what a British child would know.
What do you all think?

If UK education is so dire, how come so many foreigners come to study in the UK ?

I don't think they're fighting to get into comps! Universities are a different kettle of fish, but even then, they're keen to come to RG universities, not quite so much the ex-Polys!

Kazzy really.

My understanding is that

1. some good state sixth forms have set up boarding sections for fee paying overseas students.

1. Places like Bournemouth U have plenty of overseas students taking both their well regarded vocational courses and things things like film. It is often middle class British parents who get stuck on Oxbridge and RG.

The OP reminds me of an Italian in-law. Everything, but everything was better in Italy, especially the education. So big surprise when they announced they were upping sticks and returning to the UK as their DC were floundering in an over-rigid Italian secondary system.

The French system too. French in London will often tell you how superior their education is. Then you hear that their DC are switching to the British stream at the Lycee CDG. or looking for sixth form places in both the state and private sector. By many accounts the last couple of years of the French system is a slog.

You need to blame the government, not the school , for that ECDL qulification being dropped. It has been excluded from league tables for the last few years, largely because it was regarded as the ultimate 'gaming the system' qualification. It really would have taught your DS very little useful about computers.

Lawyer here. A lot of European countries have a lot of generalists, that's true. I think it is because most other European counties tend to have smaller firms than we do here, so people have to cover more practice areas so that if a client comes in they can get all the advice they need there. In the U.K. we have some monster firms and people specialise more. I've worked outside the monster firms and specialise in three areas (all types of litigation). To a continental lawyer, I'd be a specialist. To someone at a magic circle firm in London, I'd be a jack of all trades. English law is hugely respected worldwide, so we must be doing something right.

Law is difficult to compare for the purposes of this thread as the basic structure of English law is fundamentally different from continental European law. From a continental legal perspective, the English (common) law is a bit piecemeal (no doubt owing to its origins in case law), while continental law tends to be more structured. It is my impression that English law will treat, say, the sale of a car and the sale of a property as two distinct things (and a lawyer familiar with selling cars will know nothing about selling houses) while continental law will treat them as two examples of the same thing (contractual obligations) where every lawyer will be familiar with the fundamentals (if not the details) of both types of transaction.

Strange post!

For a start, there really isn't a UK education system. There is an English/Welsh system (just about, for the moment, but Wales is about to start its own curriculum), there is a Scottish system, there is a Northern Irish system. They are all ranked separately.

Most people mean "English" when they try to talk about a "UK" system. The English system is sort of average, by global standards (PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS). Above average in primary, advantage fades out during KS3.

As for MFL--there really isn't a lot of incentive for English speakers in England to learn a second language, and unlike America (where Spanish now has default second-language status for historical, cultural and demographic reasons), there is no obvious "choice" for a second language in England. Should we learn French because that's the historical favorite and France is close by? Spanish because it's more widely spoken and relatively easy, and we go on holiday to Spain a lot? German because it's the major European powerhouse? Mandarin because the Chinese are taking over the world? Latin because it's supposed to be the best for learning about grammar and is the root of other languages? Community languages like Urdu and Polish because they are, well, community languages? The result is a lack of momentum.

In Wales, by contrast, Welsh language learning appears to be on the increase. When there is one obvious choice and everyone gets behind it and can see a point and purpose (=culture/identity and history, in the case of Wales), English speakers are perfectly capable of learning other languages.

I live in another country and speak the language fluently, and frankly I can understand why most people in England don't bother. There is nothing worse than trying to learn a language only to find that everyone just keeps on talking English at you--and that doesn't stop until you reach the point of being pretty good at the language.

Needmoresleep
some good state sixth forms have set up boarding sections for fee paying overseas students.
I'd be extremely surprised if that was true.

I know of a state 6th form that has boarding but all of the kids are UK citizens from overseas
and there are no education fees as that is not legal in the state sector

TiP, I was aware of at least one sixth form college in the South that was offering boarding, but someone told me her sons rural northern sixth form had Asian boarders. It boosted the number of academic and hard working kids, but I dont know whether they were British citizens and what level boarding fees, which can be charged, were set at.

And obviously there are plenty of no frills private colleges that recruit almost exclusively from overseas.

Needmoresleep
Symonds has boarders - 150 of them, but all have to qualify for UK state schools so only UK or EU citizens
AND meet the distance criteria
AND get the grades
Hence why one of the dorms is called Falklands House

Under the visa rules brought in by TM when she was Home Sec, no non EU resident can attend a UK state school

I’m currently doing an undergrad in Britain. Many of the local students are shockingly ignorant and quite frankly a bit stupid. It would seem that schools don’t teach reason which makes the education they do provide fairly redundant. The curriculum is really dumbed down to cater for them. It’s shockibg and frustrating.

Kokeshi has nailed the fundamentals of why UK born students don't learn languages well. I only speak one other language, fairly decently, but never have much opportunity to improve because everyone I meet wants to speak English, so I have developed the habit of replying in the language foreign to me while they practise their English. With a little mutual help (they supply specialist words and help me achieve a better style, and I do it back to them) we both improve. After a little interval to get my ear in, I can make conversation at a dinner party for highly educated professionals (with some lapses, which are politely overlooked as ignorance). Occasionally someone laughs at an intended joke I make. Having spent most of my holidays afloat, I'm good at discussions about tide, sea states and engine maintenance.

@racecardriver, reasoning isn't taught in UK schools, and adding it to the curriculum would be positive progress. However, we have no tradition of teaching it, and so would struggle to initiate its study. And frankly, from personal experience and the acquaintances made on my teacher training course, most of the people are kindly intentioned and minded to improve social mobility, but not worldly or intellectual. Fine if you want to teach students who plan to live their parents' lives (and lots do) but not a great jumping off point for changing the world.

@XingMing true. They don’t pay enough here to attract good quality teachers.

@Gregory, and that is the saddest (but truest) point of all. Education has been outpriced; almost anything else pays better, so it end up recruiting people for whom it is a convenient choice rather than what they really want to do. It's astonishing it's as good as it it.

Sorry, please overlook typing errors. Getting late.

Where is there an influx of people coming here for the education system?

Is private education the same as state then?

If it is, then I think we might consider putting DD in to private.

The distinction here is between the maintained sector (state education, funded through taxation) and fee-paying or privately funded. Confusingly, public schools are paid for by parents paying fees privately but referring to an elite group of schools. Hope this helps @27dresses.

@Racecardriver sweeping generalisation.
What are you studying and where?

@pieceofpurplesky sorry, that was supposed to read local students on my course. I’m doing llb at a Russel group. All the international folks are great because it’s hard for us to get in but the standards seem to be really really low for domestic students. I hate to think what it’s like at less selective universities/non professional courses though. Can’t be good

There are quite a few (non-RG) universities, at which friends and acquaintances of my DS are studying, where the concept of thinking for oneself seems to be overlooked. Not my opinion, but that of my not quite 20-year old DS.

A bit accusatory PurpleSky, if I might observe.

Reasoning and logic are not well taught in the UK IMVHO: maths is the main (best-taught) reasoning subject, and degree qualified maths teachers are rare.

@27dresses state schools are ‘free’ schools funded by tax payers. Grammar schools are selective state schools. Independent schools are private schools funded by parents. Public schools are a group of good private schools. It’s quite confusing with the different terminology here.

@XingMing please could you point out where I have been accusatory for pointing out that the statement "Many of the local students are shockingly ignorant and quite frankly a bit stupid" is a generalisation?

@GregoryPeckingDuck @Racecardriver have you changed names?
I am sure that many of the parents who have children at RG universities would be horrified at your assumptions.
I am a teacher and am sadly inclined to agree to a certain degree, however I feel that some parents do not enrich the lives of their children and should shoulder some of the blame as well as the narrow school curriculum. I teach at a 'bog standard' comp as they were once called. So many kids have an ambition to 'be famous', 'be a vlogger' etc. It's crazy. I have been teaching for over 20 years and love my job. For the first time though I am thinking of quitting as all it is now is exam prep. There is no rounded education. I don't agree that the kids are stupid though - these exams are really hard to pass.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I meant, does private education in the UK come under the same low ranking or does this only take state education in to account?

I have taught a lot of adult students from many different countries for years and think I agree - if what they say is correct, many students, from EU countries especially, learn more subjects in more breadth and depth than us.

We had a Eurasmus exchange student with us for a week recently and she went to school with my DD and was way above them in the maths they were doing.

On the flip side, I have also had same students say that they learn too much and can't retain it all. I dk t think they drop certain subjects like we do in year 9.