Grammar schools - the impact on progression to higher education

[CruCru]

A thing came out in the Times a day or so ago about how grammar schools have about 45% of their pupils from households of below median income (although the number of pupils with FSM is still very low). I’d always thought of grammar schools as being mainly schools that the middle classes get into but this article suggested that this is not necessarily the case.

I haven’t linked to the article (because it’s behind a paywall) but the report is here.

I must say that I haven’t read the whole report yet but plan to do so. The overview has said the previous studies have focused too narrowly on pupils on FSM and that grammar schools aid progression to higher education for pupils who may be considered disadvantaged.

I've not found the Times piece yet, but this appears to refer to the same report:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2019/01/10/grammar-schools-send-ethnic-minority-students-cambridge-comprehensives/

One of the problems with this sort of study is that it focusses on income-ignoring the fact that privilege and income are not necessarily synonymous.

Ok, here's the Times shared link:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/grammars-are-vital-for-social-mobility-s7r9mcsd3?shareToken=f8f9fb585f9e0fd0dc72cafdaa111f3a

Thank you!

One of the problems with this sort of study is that it focusses on income

Not sure that's what this one did?

That’s an interesting point Bertrand. How would you define privilege if not through money? I get that there are factors like education and accent but I’m not sure that these would be easy to identify in a study like this.

Leader article re this also from The Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-grammar-schools-they-provide-only-part-of-the-answer-ghph9r5sf?shareToken=0dddddbddab0418f5bb6b9e88ac33c2e

I thought this report would not get so much as a mention in this locality !

The interesting statistic is that 48% of Sixth Form children in so called Secondary Moderns still made it to university compared to only '59'% from that 'Paragon of Virtue' Comprehensive schooling.

Also to no doubt the astonishment of some posters, 13% of Modern school kids made it to Russell Group Universities This compared to a miserable 26% from Comprehensive schools.

Quote: There would be nothing wrong with secondary modern education for the majority of children. This report states the bright children who missed selection will still get the appropriate education The opportunity to access grammar school education at 16 is available to children based on good GCSE results this if an area is selective !

This report seems to me to disprove something that I don’t think many people have ever asserted- that is, that grammar schools are the preserve of the rich. The issue is not so much wealth, but social class and cultural capital.

So in that case Bertrand you could have a 'Multi Millionaire' family with zero Culture Capital ! Lotto Winner's or a family made Millions on a scam get rich quick scheme ….

Are their children grammar material.....

very interesting but i wonder how they take into account the self employed who only report a minimum income via dividends etc.

How do they know what parents earn ? Not sure I'd give that info to some random survey about schools.

One of the metrics they used was POLAR which is more of a postcode thing:
www.officeforstudents.org.uk/data-and-analysis/polar-participation-of-local-areas/

So nothing to do with parental income at all ?!?!? We have kids at my school who live in a v v expensive postcode - in council flats. This means the stupid POLAR data excludes them from the aspiration type courses run for kids from their exact type of household. Whereas my friend who lives in a £4 million pound farm house lives in an area of deprivation and therefore her kids qualify. Statistics are rubbish.

Statistics can give a good overall picture, the fact there are exceptions doesn't invalidate them in this sort of study.

Postcode type factors become unfair if they're overused for contextual offers etc.

But no one knows what the parents at these schools earn. So the headline is completely misleading. In any area there will be a wide range of incomes and so it's all a bit of a pointless debate as all the kids could be lower income or higher - no one knows. Although I'd anticipate the latter !

My parents were not millionaires but close (in the 70s mind. Today they are, as houseprices have inflated). But they had no education, and indeed an inverse snobbery toward any professionals or teachers ( 'never done a days proper work in their lives, lazy bastards' - was their standard comment about anyone not doing manual labour). I went to grammar school, but it was pretty deflating that my parents offered no positive support whatsoever and would degrade everything I or my teachers would do or aspired to (everyone at university was lazy - especially at Oxford, where I went - 'full of dim toffs'). Think Mathilda's parents by Roald Dahl. They had plenty of friends who would think and say the same, so it's definitely a culture thing. You can be working class and rich (prime example: Alan Sugar)

So my pojnt being: wealth/income is not an exact indicator of whether a family environment is advantageous or disadvantageous towards the education of their offspring.

Nelly certainly in the 70s and 80s there were a number of parents, who were loaded and did not give two figs about what schools their offspring attended ! I know of parents turning up with full length 'mink' coats and Rolls Royce's. This to deprived Secondary schools in Gloucestershire to watch their children play football.

However, what has happened today with these type of people, the status symbols of cars and mink coats have been replaced by the 'egotistical ' advancement of how much their children schools cost them !

These parents are not so interested in the academic outcomes of their children, more in the bragging rights of how 'little' private education costs. An example of such parents is brilliantly portrayed in the 1980s satirical series Educating Marmalade .

These parents have zero culture capital...

A number of these culture less individuals, have realised they are more bragging rights to be gained by a child entering a grammar school than for them entering a private school.

Still that is the only ones who have acquired some resemblance of culture capital by engaging with an actual professional person at a dinner party !

I don't know whether that relates to the real Cheshire housewives though...