Btech vs a-levels

[crackalackin]

With a choice of a-levels at a traditional 6th form vs b-tech at a college, my Year11 daughter is struggling to make a decision! Are b-techs as accepted as a-levels when it comes to university applications or is it going to be a problem in the future? All advice and experience very welcome!

My DS did Computer BTEC

Which some computer science departments would reject out of hand (or, more precisely, would be indifferent to unless accompanied by A Level maths).

It depends on the sort of universities the OP's son is looking at. There are few Russell Group universities which do not require A Level maths as an A Level (ie, there is no BTEC which will fulfil the requirement). Nottingham is an exception, and possibly Leeds. However, you would do well to ask them what their first year completion rates look like for students without A Level maths, and note that they are increasingly getting students with A Level Further Maths (around 25% of the intake to some courses).

Outside the Russell Group, few ask for A Level maths, although again it would be well worth asking what the completion and employment rates look like when comparing those with and without A Level maths.

I teach a BTEC subject in a very vocational area and I would definitely advocate ALevels over BTECs. The new 2016 courses are far too hard and the assessments keep changing structure when 60% of each cohort fails the exams. They recently brought in an N grade which stands for 'nearly passed' to try an combat the failure rate!!
Stick with ALevels and just make sure your DC is realistic about the amount of work that will be required to get a top grade.
Good luck for your DS

It depends on the sort of universities the OP's son is looking at.
Good luck for your DS

Er...the OP has a daughter. I think another poster with a son with similar situation may have caused confusion but for comp sci in particular it'd be good to get that right!

There's a lot (almost too much!) info available online about the various uni comp sci courses - both entry requirements and content. Realistically it doesn't sound like her maths and physics will be strong enough for some - so, maybe start by look at places lower down the rankings academically that still have good employment statistics, and see what they're asking for. Consider going to some uni open days if there are any before she needs to decide on her sixth form options. If there's a couple of uni courses which look like they may be where she would like to aim for, then it's worth emailing their admissions tutors to check which subject combos would be likely to be most apt.

DC currently applying for CS at top Uni's. Have done a lot of research over the years and if you want a top Uni you need A level CS, Maths, Further Maths and preferably another Stem subject.

Geography and French A-level wont cut it. BTEC's will make it hard.

Really appreciate the advice from everyone - especially the suggestion to look at the university completion rates etc. A further discussion with the sixth form regarding maths a-level is probably
also a good idea. Another question : in terms of a computer science degree - would a poorer maths a-level grade be preferable to a higher geography a-level grade (as an example!) ?

Also beware that computer science actually has one of the worst employment rates out of all the degrees. ErrolTheDragon suggestions on looking at employment rates, in addition to completion is a very good one.

www.studyinternational.com/news/uk-computer-science-has-the-highest-rate-of-unemployed-graduates/

Employment rates for CS at top twenty universities are essentially 100%. For those doing an integrated masters and/or a year in industry, even closer to 100%.

Lower down, not. Hence why CS famously has massive demand from employers but also surprisingly high graduate unemployment: unlike, say, maths or physics, there are some very weak courses.

Worth reading the executive summary of this, at least:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518575/ind-16-5-shadbolt-review-computer-science-graduate-employability.pdf

Comp Sci grad here. To study comp sci at an RG uni she will need maths. Computing is less important where as maths is compulsory. When I applied Birmingham needed maths or computing but that was the exception to the rule. And it will be so much harder for her without maths.
If she wants to do a btec and follow the vocational route then she should look at apprenticeships in computing. Either after GCSE or after 6th form. If she doesn't enjoy academic study, a levels and uni will be hard to learning on the job may be more suited to her.
(I say this as someone who got good a levels and a good degree but should have done an apprenticeship to get there)

When I applied Birmingham needed maths or computing

Needs A level maths as of last year.

She is hoping to study computer science at university- and would do computer science b-techs. Or a-levels of computer science, geography and French.

She needs maths A level, or at least AS level if the VI form will let her.

What you need to know is which individual units are studied for BTEC. Stangey I have taught a lot of BTEC health and Social Care (HSC) and A Level Computer Science. I have also taught a single unit of HND CS.

BTEC is made up of a number of units, some are compulsory some are optional but the optional ones are decided by the college, not the student, and that can determine how useful the BTEC is, a college may opt for the units it finds gets higher grades (looks good in the press and league tables) or it may opt for the best units for progression and most commonly it's decided by what staff can teach.

Eg in HSC I have done a lot of long term placements teaching the 'anatomy and physiology' unit. One school employed someone permanently (they didn't interview me because of agency fees but didn't tell me - still slightly bitter) who can't teach anatomy and physiology so the students who want to do nursing have to do A Level biology along side the BTEC and they need a B grade to get on a nursing degree ,or go to a different VI form that teaches that unit.

BTEC does have advantages, it is a broader curriculum than A Level and for anyone not going directly on to a degree but doing an HNC or HND then the format of teaching and marking is the same, an HND can be topped up to a degree.

I suggest you have a look at some universities and look at the individual requirements for the courses she is interested in.

A full 2 year extended diploma is equivalent to 3 A Levels but you ca also do a diploma equivalent to 2 A Levels and an A Level on the side.

Just a note on the acronym BTEC, it is pronounces Btech but Btech is an Indian qualification so if you are looking on the internet make sure you are looking at the correct thing.

@ReflectentMonatomism Well said. There are a lot of comp sci courses at university. The lower ones have very bad employment rate. I can see the same thing with the hot new darling of data science. It's not yet that every university have a course yet, but once an area is hot, there'll be a lot of worthless ones made to make money.

The lower ones have very bad employment rate

As a general rule, every letter in the degree title which is not "c o m p u t e r s c i e n c e" reduces employment by several percent.

A good way to figure out the value of a department is to look at how many different CS-ish programmes they have. The more, the worse.

My tuppence from our experience:

DS with 10 GCSEs but an attitude problem- started 4 AS levels; Maths, Physics, Geog, Economics. The Maths was a close call has he's just missed an A in his GCSE.

Basically, AS's just weren't working for DS, as was apparent by Easter in Y12, and given that I don't believe a couple of mid to low grade A levels are worth the paper they're written on, we investigated his options and hit upon a BTEC, 3 'A' level equivalent in Computing, restarting Y12.

DS duly got for his AS levels, a D in Economics, E in Geog, U (!) in Maths (having stopped attending lessons) and had dropped Physics altogether.

Initially he was going to start Maths again with his BTEC but investigation demonstrated that RG unis are pretty much only interested in an A at Maths A level alongside the BTEC to do Computer Science. Subsequently I have had a second DS doing the 'new' style GCSEs and the local sixth forms require a solid '8' in Maths order to allow Maths A level entry....

I knew DS was unlikely to get that A, so he did just the BTEC.

IMO 3 A levels would have been harder; but the BTEC requires a lot of constant input, no 'last minute revision'; but if a DC isn't capable of 3 'hard' (i.e. not 'soft') A levels and to get solid A/B style grades, they'd be better off doing the BTEC.

DS got Dstar; Dstar; D and is now at a well regarded ex-poly (sorry to be blunt, but not London Met..., but with an 80% 'employment rate') doing a Computing degree (with a £1500 academic bursary... )

So, imo, if a DC want to do Computer Science/Computing (how they differ depends on individual universities- there is overlap) and is capable of 3 solid, 'hard' A levels and in line for A/Bs, I'd say go for the A levels; if they're more likely to get something more like CCC/BCD, I'd say they'd be better off 'committing' to Computers at uni and to do a BTEC.

A major advantage to DS has been that having studied Computing for 2 solid years (9-3, 3 days a week, no study periods or 'frees'); he's quite a way ahead of the '3 A level' entrants on his course. And- he's that one year older and more mature!

For the record, 4 out of the 8 DC doing DS's BTEC are at uni doing Computing now, the others are all in computing work (another advantage of BTEC!).

Thank you so much @Miljah - I have also thought that the benefit of the BTEC might be greater than a poor performance in a-levels.
She has applied for and got a place at both the sixth form and the college so I think it will be a case of waiting and seeing what the gcse grades turn out to be

Agree that she should consider if there is a particular university she might want to attend, as that will inform what qualifications they require as essential for entry,.

For what it’s worth, I have a younger relative who recently graduated from a Russell Group university studying computer science, and got in with a computer science Btec, so it doesn’t rule out Russell Group altogether but it just depends on where she would like to go and what their requirements are.

My final tuppence-worth ...

I may be wrong, but it's my belief that with Computing, it doesn't actually matter where you go to get your qualification.

If you are going for a job that has a baseline entry as 'a 2:1 in Computing or closely related subject', I don't believe, with a good CV (like sandwich year work-experience, a cracking 'final project', good references, say) anyone will distinguish between a middle of the road RG and a 'not notorious' ex- higher education institute.

This is Computing where the colour of your old school tie means diddly.

Computer Science, on the other hand, might be a bit different, as that's the Mathsy part of computing. Your future employers might well want to see a solid maths-based degree which an academic RG might be more likely to offer.