A levels v International Baccalaureate

[Investigate]

Does anyone in the UK have experience of the IB they can share please? In particular, its difficulty level compared with A levels, university offers, any other useful information. Thank you.

I did IB - admittedly 20 years ago now I feel old! I'm a reasonably high acheiving all rounder and I felt I would have done better doing a-levels. I managed fine and got quite low offers for good unis but I suspect they're more knowledgable about it now and more demanding. It is more demanding than a-levels - in my school the more able did IB and those who weren't as academic did a levels (tho I'm not sure that's how it should be segregated!) and while I did allow me to keep my options open for two more years I probably should have just realised I was never going to use physics in real life (I did at higher) and gone with what I enjoyed rather than what I was just good at but hated.
Having said that I did well with it - English degree and solicitor in a city law firm. I'm not sure I'd be encouraging my kids into it (tho not an option where we are anyhow) but my parents still maintain it's the best thing ever! [shrug]

Higher Maths nowhere near the level of A level Maths, (how could it be with so much less time) and so universities will not accept IB students on Maths courses with Higher Maths. They don’t often make this clear.

Sorry, but I think that's nonsense, I know plenty of people who went from the IB into maths degrees at prestigious universities with no difficulties at all. Which universities will not accept IB students onto maths courses with IB higher maths?

I've taught A levels in the UK and IB in international schools. The IB in my opinion is much more comprehensive and rounded- but best suited to an able all rounder. When my kids are that age I will encourage IB if they can.

In my subject the difficulty level is similar and friends in other subject areas say the same

My DD's school did either - the very bright kids did fine at IB (though they would have excelled anyway) but others struggled because you needed to get top marks in any section for it to be considered an A level equivalent due to the content in any given subject being less than a levels and it's was very intensive - they couldn't take part time work etc. It's probably a better qualification but our universities are set up to take kids with a levels so my friends son had to do a bit of catching up on peers who had a levels but the university provided it as part of the course anyway because different boards very in content, plus international students have varying knowledge. As a comparison, my dd is taking 4 a levels, plus some other qualifications and it's really hard as friends have so much more time - she's quite driven but I'm seeing the stress (we didn't think she should do 4 but teens are headstrong!)

My dd is at an IB school. When we had the transition meeting to the sixth form, the teacher at the meeting told us the IB is the workload equivalent of doing 5 A-levels.

A lot of the students leave the school at sixth form to do A-levels elsewhere.

My ds took the IB and has started at Warwick university in October. He took HL - maths, chemistry and biology and SL - geography, English language and lit and German B - his score was 43.
The IB is very intensive - 6 subjects, extended essay, internal assessments for all subjects, theory of knowledge and then sport and community service on top. You do need to have good time management and work pretty steadily for 2 years - last minute cramming will not work!
I don't know how the content of higher levels compares with a levels as ds's university course is not something he has studied before. He did think that standard geography was pretty easy, though and didn't really learn anything that had not already been covered in GCSE. Also the geo in the syllabus was mainly human and frankly you can answer most of the questions if you have a decent understanding of current affairs. He found HL maths the hardest subject, despite already having AS maths at grade A (taken in year 11).
Several of ds's cohort are at university in UK -eg imperial, LSE, UEA - and taking the IB instead of A levels did not seem to affect their offers from UK universities.

Higher Maths nowhere near the level of A level Maths, (how could it be with so much less time) and so universities will not accept IB students on Maths courses with Higher Maths. They don’t often make this clear.

this is not correct. HL maths is actually harder than A level maths and HL is accepted - eg from Warwick

IB: 39 + STEP (grade 1) ) with three 6s at Higher Level OR 39 with 7,6,6 at Higher Level to include 6 in Higher Level Mathematics
NB - Warwick will take a 6 at HL maths, but you need an A* at a level in both maths a level and further maths a level - suggesting that the opposite of what this poster has written is true.
Of course this is just one university, but I believe Warwick has a vg reputation for maths

Thank you very much for all your detailed responses, everyone. There is much food for thought here. I see the benefits of IB for a very very studious all-rounder, but not sure if this is my DC.

We need to do some careful research about the university courses my DC would like to take: not sure but is interested in zoology or psychology. The IB does not have a psychology option, whereas schools/colleges doing A levels usually seem to offer at least AS level psychology, which would give a good idea of whether DC would like the subject in reality.

A long shot, but any experience of zoology or psychology offers from universities, anyone?

You can study Psychology as an IB option.
One of ds's friends is now studying zoology - she did the IB - HL - biology, chemistry and geography, SL - English, maths and French.
She applied to Leeds, Swansea, Sheffield, Manchester and one other (name escapes me!) - needed around 34 points and 36 for the masters course at Sheffield.

From painful personal experience universities do not tend to understand the IB and offers are unrealistic. A levels are easier to achieve the top grades needed for university. I did a year of the IB then chose to drop out and sit my A levels in a year, and I got the grades I needed to go to medical school. (This was 2011 so perhaps things have improved but look very carefully).

Personally I think the IB is a more rounded education but if the goal is a good UK university, stick to A levels!

@ShanghaiDiva psychology is not offered at DC’s school, unfortunately. It’s very useful to have that information about the zoology offers - thank you.

@Emelene do you mind my asking why you dropped out of the IB course? Well done on getting into medicine! DC’s goal is a good UK university and achieving a place on the course wanted without impossible workload to get there.

@Investigate - I dropped out because however hard I worked I was not confident I could get the grades required for a university offer. People will say "it is worth 5 a levels" but the universities in my experience don't treat it that way. My college just couldn't deliver the teaching to get all 6s/7s and that is what the universities demanded. There was no leeway for doing so many subjects etc. Getting 3 As was much more achievable, and I also got an A*.

I would ask what the goal is - honestly I now think why make it harder for yourself? Your son could pursue volunteering/ hobbies for a rounded education at college if (and only if) he had room around his 3 A levels.

As I said I think the IB is a rounded education. I would scrutinise the college's results though and where their students went from the IB vs top achievers at A level. Sadly in my college so many promising young people didn't get the grades at IB (they would have at A level) and missed out on medicine, marine biology, etc. The college were pretty good at hiding this fact as they wanted people to do the IB as they got more money for it. If you had a college with excellent experienced teachers in the IB specifically and a proven track record it might be a different story. But even then I'm not convinced...

Isn't Math a bit of an unusual subject in that top university departments require STEP (or MAT at Oxford) in addition to any end-of-course exams? My understanding is that A*s in Math and Further Math, or a 7 in Math HL, won't you very far if you do poorly on the STEP.

@Investigate in terms of working out how an IB score compares with A Level results, it's tricky. Some universities did ask me for specific Highers marks - 667 I think in one case - and I suspect that at the time they were trying to translate a 7 to an A, a 6 to a B, and so on. It's not that simple - as you've seen from others the standard of the Higher subjects is not the same as A Levels, and pertinently the curriculum and style of teaching are very different. Not sure if they'd do the same now.

The extra 3 points to make it up to 45 - made up from "CAS" (community, action and service), Theory of Knowledge and the Extended Essay, I think are really very special - they give a focus on not just individual subjects but on the development of the person as a whole.

The subject of IB and HL maths keeps recurring on IB threads.
I would advise any student aiming for the most competitive maths or physics, possibly some engineering degrees not to do IB as they will be making their life unnecessary hard, both at school and at least the first year of university.
Reasons
HL maths may be more difficult to get top mark in than say FM A level but it covers less topics and therefore STEP and the degree are more of a a challenge. Places like Imperial still ask for a 7 in HL maths for their maths degrees.
IB excludes the possibility of doing a third science.

There are other combinations of subjects which could put off for IB, for example a linguist who wants to do 2 MFLs and Latin.
It ‘s fine for medicine though as it allows for example chemistry / biology and maths plus the other IB subjects that add an extra dimension.

Generally, although IB offers breadth across subjects it does not allow as much breadth within a subject as A levels or equivalent. A lot of the extra work is due to the IB fillers such as TOK and CAS documentation.

Thanks for so much helpful advice and experience. My DC definitely doesn’t want to do Higher maths so would do the Standard option - reluctantly!
The school is excellent in terms of teaching, support and pastoral care which makes the question of moving away to do A levels instead so difficult. It’s the very heavy workload which is the main issue. Moving to a new school is always a bit of a gamble, though at least joining in the sixth form means there would be others joining at the same time.

DH is a PhD engineer who did the IB. He says it's bollocks that he was at any disadvantage by not doing A level maths and felt he was further along that most of the A level students. In his experience the IB students found Uni easier to negotiate as they were already used to being very good with time management.

BlueBertie assuming that his first degree was engineering that does not contradict what I said.
Time management is always a useful skill to have but can be acquired in other ways.

If a school has a choice between IB and A levels students often self select for IB on the basis that they can effectively time manage so they are already at an advantage. Those type of students are suited for 'busy' undergraduate courses like medicine and engineering.