English vs Welsh Education

[Lollipop30]

I’d like to know peoples experiences of going from Welsh primary school to English secondary, specifically in the last couple of years.

There’s recently been a mass exodus of pupils at my daughters welsh primary school and this has happened at my friends daughters welsh primary school also, and honestly we’re very worried.

The reason being the difference in the curriculum and that due to them going into English secondary schools they’re going in at a considerably lower level.

I’ve read through some elements of both curriculums to get a comparison (and hoping to reassure myself!) But found that the welsh curriculum was up to two years behind in teaching quite a few elements.

Anyone got any insight/experiences?

There are very definitely differences between the national curriculum in england and in wales at primary school level. I would agree with your assessment that in England there is an expectation of higher attainment than in Wales . However one thing that is also apparent is that secondaries in england are still catching up with the raised expectations of primary pupils in england.
I suppose the question you need to be asking is why is there an exodus of pupils in your local welsh primaries to english secondaries? Are the english schools just that much more "attractive" to parents and pupils when they visit them in comparison with welsh schools or is there some other reason that they are looking across the border into england?

The children from the local welsh primary schools will all if not the vast majority go onto English secondary schools just because they’re much better in our area. The parents are all putting them in English primary schools so that there’s no shortfall in info when they hit secondary.

Will there be a shortfall? Looking at the curriculums there really looks like there may be and I need some reassurance. Are we not adequately setting our kids up if they go from one system to the other??

I can't speak from direct personal experience here OP, but a close friend moved her DS from the Welsh to English systems in Y4 largely because the Welsh school wasn't turning out to be right for him, but also because she was concerned about the potential limitations of keeping him in the Welsh system, e.g. at Uni level. Also, as where you are, the local English secondary has better results than the Welsh one he would have gone to. I think there are probably multiple reasons why people move systems, but it's a shame this appears to be to the detriment of Welsh schools, not least because it becomes a vicious circle if children are being syphoned out of them into the English system.

Depends on the individual schools- it isn't a Welsh/English thing. I went to a good Welsh state school and we had a far higher percentage of leavers going to Russell group unis or Oxbridge than the local English schools.

@DeeStopia it’s changed a lot in the last few years and unless you’re 13 it’s unlikely to be relevant. My husband and I went to welsh primary and English secondary and did well, like you I’d assumed it was the same as then, (largely the same as the English system but with welsh language too).

I still think it depends on location- My DC go to Welsh schools because he standard of learning/results are better in those schools in this area. There are some gaps that the Welsh Joint Education Committee seriously need to fill (creative writing in Welsh GCSE, and Anglocentric History curriculum) but generally the standard is very high.

Will yours be going into welsh secondary also? Do you mind me asking your area? We’re North Wales, near Wrexham

You need to look at GCSE and A level results at the secondary schools, and the destination of leavers, to see which produces higher achieving kids.

Ah that's a lovely area OP. I know many people who went to Ysgol Morgan Llwyd.
I'm in mid-Wales. I think I'm really aware of what an advantage a good grasp of the Welsh language has on job prospects too.

@Nancyjoan
The English secondaries way way exceed the welsh ones, but does this reflect on the primary schools they came from?

I'm really shocked there's such a big difference in your area! The welsh secondary school my kids attend has the same results as the best English one in our area. Some years they've slightly outperformed and some years been slightly outperformed but there's not much in it and last year they had the same gcse results.

What a shame. I hope Estyn or some other body can address this discrepancy, there are so many advantages to a Welsh language education but it sounds like they are being compromised by the quality of education itself in the welsh language schools in your area.

The English secondaries way way exceed the welsh ones, but does this reflect on the primary schools they came from?

No, but if a large percentage of their intake comes from the Welsh primaries, it suggests that it doesn’t matter if they come in at a lower level, because over the course of their time at school those students are pulled up to the higher level.

In your situation, I would speak to the Eng secondary, ask them how they deal with this. They may offer catch up/drop in sessions to fill any gaps in Year 7.

I think there may be some talking at cross-purposes here. @lollipop30 do you mean schools geographically located in Wales and England? Or do you mean schools within Wales that teach through Welsh or English language?

Ah yes, sorry. I had misread the thread, ignore me. How welsh education ranks against the rest of the UK is definitely a concern. Its a difficult decision for you I'm sure.

Sorry geographically! We’re right on the border.

It really isn't true that English school are doing better than Welsh. Yes England has moved on on terms of curriculum and grading (not improved: moved on) but in terms of outcomes nothing much has changed at secondary.

Is this true of primary schools though? As far as I’m aware if you continue within the welsh system you get to more or less the same destination it’s if there’s a change from one to the other that you end up missing out

Does the Welsh language help if you want a high paying job in London or Manchester? Surely not everyone who is Welsh stays in Wales? Moving out might make other attributes more attractive.

Lollipop I'm a governor at my children's Welsh primary and can't believe the challenge in the work they do. A lot of it knocks spots off what the secondary kids in my English secondary can be bothered with.

It's not about Welsh language. The majority of schools in Wales are English medium.

MYNAMEISNOTSTEVEN, If you are in one of the really good schools in Wales, what you say is correct, there is real challenge and progress in the school. However, in my opinion, I regret to say that this is not the case in the majority of welsh schools.

This thread is confusing. Is the OP talking about schools in England vs schools in Wales? Or about English-medium vs Welsh-medium schools in Wales?

Wales is the lowest performing part of the UK in educational terms. Among Welsh schools, however, Welsh-medium schools tend to somewhat outperform English-medium schools, so it's unlikely to be the Welsh language that is causing the underperformance.

@Kokeshi123
Sorry if it’s not clear a couple have said that!
Talking about schools in England or Wales, all English speaking. We’re right on the border.

Hi Lollipop, I also live on the border near Wrexham. Lots of parents from our village have for many years driven to Malpas for secondary as Bishop Heber considered better. Recently they have started moving them across the border to English primary as curriculum is faster paced. Apparently they'd be behind their peers if moved at 16.

I've decided to stick with Wales. The slower pace suits my children and they are happy. I think a move would stress them. Also Penley has a good reputation and there is a free bus. They will be with their primary school friends. I think moving to secondary is hard enough and their primary school friends will make the adjustment easier.

I do however know two parents who are feel very strongly that the English system is better.

Moved at 11 even!