Does anyone else ever feel like the concept of "school choice"....

[Kokeshi123]

may make it harder to change practices that aren't optimal or that frustrate parents, not easier?

Because looking on Mumsnet, whenever a parent in England expresses an objection to something in their kids' school that doesn't make sense ("Why does the school require this GCSE as mandatory?" "This discipline policy is insane and doesn't make sense" "My child's school keeps sending homework that is just busywork and doesn't seem to teach anything" "The uniform policy is over-the-top" "They keep pushing religion at my child") they seem to provoke a lot of responses along the lines of "Well, surely you CHECKED the school policy before you chose that school? You have school choice. If you chose this school, you have effectively chosen this policy as well, and you therefore have no right to object to it."

The reality is that what with population pressures, transportation/work commute issues and so on, a really high percentage of people don't really have any school choice. And even if you do, well, what are the odds of finding a school which has policies in line with your preferences for uniforms AND for discipline policies AND for homework policies AND for which GCSEs are compulsory AND for religion AND for absolutely every other possible area where a school could conceivably have a policy? It's never going to happen--you can't find a school that ticks every box and is actually commutable for the family.

But the idea that "Well, you chose the school so you have signed up to every policy they have ever created" is used as a reason for the idea that parents should never have the right to complain or question a school's policy on anything. And I am genuinely wondering if this makes reforms or improvements harder rather than easier. (Yes, it goes without saying that often when parents moan about things at school they are being unfair or unreasonable--however, sometimes parents do make valid objections to stuff in my opinion.)

It would be interesting to see whether parental satisfaction levels are actually any better in countries where school choice is allowed. My own hunch is that they most likely are not!

Most people absolutely don't have school choice. Friend of mine has only one option for her child, it's single sex which she doesn't want. We are in a city so you would think there would be more. This is due to a lot of religious and single sex secondaries in the area, though you may be close to a lot of schools you're not necessarily eligible for them.

Sorry, should say many not most people.

I take this sort of thing up on the thread, and regularly remind posters who say 'you shouldn't have chosen it' that for many people it's Hobson's choice, and for some the allocated school might not have featured on their preference list at all.

The 'concept of school choice' only really exists in the public imagination. The actual system only allows you to express a preference, which it may or may not be possible to meet. Talking of that as a 'choice' only skews expectations.

But I'm not sure that it makes much difference to school ethos. There is rather more choice (though tempered by selection) in the private sector, but not really much going on in response to parental views.

There's very little choice in schools, so it is indeed absurd for people to criticise parents who are unhappy with school policies for 'choosing' the school.

Catchment, oversubscription, transport ... all issues that severely limit people's choices around here.

People also forget staff changes mean policy changes . Usually a uniform change so what was once reasonable becomes unreasonable.

You certainly don't get a choice around here unless you pass the 11 plus

My "choices" were crap and one bus. Crap and 2 buses or crap and walk. 2 out of the three have the same uniform supplier. And results are shit too.

What are you supposed to do of you can't afford to move or go private

The thing is some people do choose schools based on one thing and then complain about the multitude of other things that don't (normally) suit them.

So let's say catholic school for being academic and having great results,but then moan that the school is religious.

Fair enough if you don't actually get a choice. Fair enough if an unforeseen change happened. Fair enough if the school misrepresented itself or on paper seemed the best fit for your kid,but the reality is miles away.

The problem comes when people want to pick and choose based on completely arbitrary and individual preferences.

I think it was always a bit of a myth that England is teeming with parents who each want different flavors of school, with one parent wanting a school like this and one parent wanting a school like that.

I think most people just want decent schools and actually have a fairly common/shared vision over what that means--for the most part.

Certainly, high-performing school systems around the world generally do not seem to be the ones that have gone down the "school choice" road.

The myth of 'parental choice' is one of the worst things to have happened to our education system in recent years. The idea was to create a market driven culture of improvement. And it was never, ever, going to work.

You don't have any choice unless you have money, luck or saviness. Usually at least 2 out of the 3 required. Choice is in the state system is an absolute illusion.

It depends on your area and your pickiness if there is a choice.
Round here as long as you are happy to not go for the super popular ones, which aren't necessarily any better, then there is a genuine choice for most people.

However despite people always saying that OFSTED is irrelevant, then the little word "outstanding", even if it was gained 10+ years ago and hasn't had a full inspection since, blinkers a lot of people.

You can only have choice if there's spare capacity in all schools which is uneconomic.

Also some people get a lot more choice than others. If you're non-religious, non-musical, non-aptitudey, unable to move house, unwilling or unable to rent a house next door etc, etc then you have no choice. And then you find that you're left with a school that ends up with a disportionate number of kids whose families can't or won't make choices and tend to be poorer or less engaged. And Ofsted is well known to disproportionately hand out outstandings to schools with an easier-to-teach cohort and it's a vicious cycle.

But often policy is not unilaterally changed (laughable parent/teacher input) or changed because of current situations and restrictions placed on the school which force it (management) to happen. Especially living in a town overtaken by those fleeing the city, money and privilege make the policies very skewed.

There is only ever a preference wrt school choice - it is only money that allows you to be able to afford real choices. And sometimes even this is a problem if your child doesn’t fit the mould.

The thing that gets me is that when parents "choose" a school for one of a multitude of reasons (nearest to home, best Ofsted/results, most posh intake, best rugby team, friends going there etc), and the people who run that school then use that popularity to justify whatever agenda they have - usually religion. So then we end up with more (usually) religious schools on the back of it. It's disingenuous of them to proclaim that it is the religion that is attracting people, especially given what we know of falling church attendance etc.

Even if there were a realistic 'choice' of schools for all parents - which clearly there isn't for most - you would still be choosing the 'best fit' which doesn't mean you agree with everything that happens at the time you make the choice. Say there were 10 things you considered important, when looking, I doubt if any school would score highest in all 10 of those boxes. You would put the school that ticked the more of your boxes than the other schools.

Same as when you vote - I've never come across a Political Party that I agree with all their policies, I have to vote for the 'best of a bad bunch them'.
Plus, of course, there will be things you didn't even know about before they start.
Plus there will be changes after you have accepted the place - much more so if it turns in to an Academy or if a new HT is appointed or some other major change, but even without them, things change over time.