Please talk some sense into me! Am feeling jealous of ds' peers starting indepndent schools!

[bobsmum]

I went to a great school - very well known in Scotland. I loved it from start to finish.

Ds is about to start school in August and wil be going to a lovely, tiny rural primary with 5 other children in P1.

But today when I picked him up at nursery, one of his group was wearing the school uniform for my old school. I had almost a physical reaction to it and nearly filled up. I've been feeling a bit sick ever since and I can only assume it's jealousy.

I'm aware that ds will get a great education in the state system - particularly in the primary school he's about to start.

Dh and I will never be able to afford an independent education for our children. I'm obviously comparing buildings/resources/teachers/children constantly. I'm aware that I have to just deal with this attitude or I'll get myself into trouble.

Tell me to be happy with what I've got. Tell me the grass isn't greener (even though it looks pretty lush IME)

Also Ds has a few issues atm and is seeing an EdPsych. I'm always wondering what a better resourced, better funded school could do for him.

superficial bollocks

Talking of bolleaux, I did have to laugh the other day when I got a begging letter from my former school (now this could give it away if there are any FPs around ) saying they are "unable to teach science in the 21st century with their current science block/equipment" etc and did I want to buy a classroom?

If I don't purchase said classroom, will all science teaching at this school be terminated? Especially as the last science block was built just over 12 years ago. Man that is so outdated.

Now I will be pleased to avoid attitudes like that, if ds and dd continue in the state system.

Maybe I'm just afraid of what I don't know, having no experience at all of state education as a pupil. My knowledge is based on working in no more than 40 or 50 primary and secondary schools across the UK. The primaries were invariably good, but the secondaries were often intimidating, dilapidated and depressing, with a big bullying problem (of which I was often the one picking up the pieces as it was ignored ) Although, maybe I'd have to work in more than 40 or so to get a clearer picture?

Does it come down to me being over protective? Probably.

They'll be fine. I do know that. I'm just very much a "what if' kind of person.

Xenia - we have a friend here in Paris who has a business doing just that - proper after school care. He started off 15 years ago with a little company that provided maths' tutoring (maths being the most important subject for future career prospects here in France) and he has built it up into quite a business, first of all expanding the subject offering and then going into structured after school care. BUT it is entirely dependent on the tax breaks the government offers - if they went, his business would disappear back into the black economy where it lived before.

bm, in general in most parts of the UK (which don't have grammar schools at all) that's what most parents find - small primaries fine and then children leave them at 11+ and if the parents can afford it go to private schools. If not some parents move to be near nicer state schools. I rmember when my sister was considering state or private and in fact went round both for her 4 year olds (and we'd only ever been to private schools) and I just don't think we could as a family any of us send children to state schools. Even at primary level it was a different mentality - private school you're paying, school treats you well, you're paying their wages directly, very different ethos even on those grounds.

Loads of ways to fund private schooling. Most parents both work full time and fund it that way. Sometimes grand parents pay. Sometimes people remortgage a house, set up a business etc

WHy woudl anyone want something worse for their children than they'd had themselves? I can understand someone abused at boarding school wanting their children to stay at home and these days many more parents want children at day schools than boarding but they still pay.

Xenia - I completely buy your idea of parents not wanting worse for their children than they had had themselves.

However, I didn't like my expensive upper middle class private all girls' prep schools nearly as much as my (free but restricted entry) international secondary school. And I have pretty much the same choices open to me in Paris - there's a very expensive fee-paying British school and a much cheaper bilingual school and I have no hesitations in preferring the latter for my daughter.

More fees does not always mean better education and a happier child IME.

It is not worse xenia it is different.I think you live in such a small world if you erally believe this claptrap.Open your eyes

Lol - don't think I've ever read such superficial shite either!! So all bankers and lawyers enjoy their work, whereas people working in low paid jobs in the arts are all miserable bastards with no options available to them! Talk about sweeping generalisations!! Tbh my experience of people who work in law (conveyancing - I've bought and sold a few houses, plus barristers on a few tribunals I've worked on) is that much of the work is shit boring and doesn't require any great intelligence or creativity, and that where it does require some skill, it also requires integrity going out of the window. A barrister needs to be able to argue a case eloquently - it doesn;t necessarily mean they have any concern about what is morally right. I guess a small minority of people working in the top banking jobs may have stimulating work, but I'm damn sure the other 99% don't! Looking around at the people I know (which is a good cross section in all kinds of careers) there is absolutely no correlation between high earnings and worthwhile, rewarding career (in fact if anything a negative correlation - the people I know who seem most satisfied are a junior doctor in a teaching hospital, an illustrator and a teaching colleague).

well said ebenezer!

Disagree eb. Although I know plenty of musicians etc, clergymen etc who love their work and I know you can enjoy low paid work in general most low paid work on factory production lines, call centres, cleaning, at the till at Tesco is never as interesting or fun as being in charge of a company, going in to do audits, being a surgeon etc. I think it's self evident that most low paid work is boring and most high paid work is more interesting.

On better - well private schools are better on just about every score except mixing with the poor and distruptive which you pay to avoid but I can't be bothered to set out all the reasons. Obviously the better exam results are good, nice physical enviornment, smaller classes, very important issue lack of disruption in class, no mixed ability (in some schools), single sex (if you prefer that), longer school day, best sport and music in the country, loads of clubs to join etc

But 94% of British children go to state schools. None of this is worth beating yourself up over. Genetics is probably 50% how your children turn out anyway so that's your fault if you marry a genetically defective man or pass on your huge nose and funny ears to your child or nasty nature or whatever. It's all just good fun.

bobsmum - I'm glad that you had such a great school experience. But lots of children at private schools don't enjoy it at all, and who knows if your son would be happier there or not?

You will help your child most by being happy yourself and by supporting him in his education. Don't let yourself live in the past.

at mixing with the poor and disruptive!

I am a great believer that education should be about more than simply academia. I think state education produces a more rounded individual, and if your child has encouraging and supportive parents then they will thrive in a state school setting.

My dh went to private primary school as a wekly boarder and hated it, even if we could afford it our kids would never to to a private school.

My nephew and neice go to private schools and on ocassions I ahve been to collect them, they come out in double file in matching hats and coats and line u, shake hands with their teacher and wait for teh adult collecting them to step forward.

At my ds's school, the doors open and it's liek a bun fight, all teh kids come charging out so happy to see their mums. In both examples the kids are 5 years old. I know whih I prefer.

Why are longer school days better? Surely at Primary level these kids are knackered at teh end of teh day, esp if followed by tennis/polo/croquet or some other equally poncy sport that serves no use in the real world.

And what happens when kids leave the independant sector and they may have to mix with the poor and deprived what then?

My spelling is terribel I know! ( I can spell really just crap typist)

Well, I'm not going to comment on the social outcome of it because I have seen people perfectly happy in their private schools who hated moving into state education and those who hated state education and were happy when moving into the independant sector. And in both cases, you can be happy on either of the two, provided the settings of the school are a match to your particular needs.

With regards to "I suppose I'm also looking forward in time to secondary, because for an average child it's unlikely that they'll be able to benefit from an independent school - they're unlikely to pass the entrance test for a start. So even if our finances improved in 7 years time, unless ds was amazingly intelligent (he's not) - he wouldn't get in, having not attended the primary school attached IYSWIM. "

Please don't forget that you can work with the school to improve your DS's chances. Good students do well with good teachers, bad teachers and even against bad attitude of teachers. But, no matter how bad is the school (and yours doesn't seem to be a bad one), you can make the difference, work along the teachers, find interesting oportunites for learning for your children, etc. I think that a good part of how well educated a child ends up depends on the attitude of the parents.

So in a nutshell, perhaps being at SAHM may not allow you to cover the fees of that school but gives you plenty of time to enhance your children attitude to learning and to improve the final outcome of it.

xenia how do you know these things Have you surveyed all types of careers or are these just the jumped up assumptions of blatant snob.you really do have the views of a provincial desperate housewife.Do you know any real people?

Sadly, state schools are indeed as Conniedescending says not "second best", maybe 4th or 5th.
But if one looks at known factors in outcomes, there are lots of variables you can play with.
First is educational level of mother, huge correlation there across all ranges. Learn stuff, teach it to your kids.
Easy availability of books, trips to libraries every week.
There is a stupidly high correlation between having a desk in the kids room and educational outcomes.
Actual proper conversations with your kids is another one. Doesn't really matter what about.
Emphasis on particular choices in behaviour also works well on average. From what I've read, telling them to "work harder" or "do well" achieves remarkably little. Emphasising that they should "try" does seem to work.

Loads of stuff you can do, much costs little or nothing.

DrNorthener - tennis is a very useful preparation for business negotiation...

DC, have you ever opened your mouth without making a crass generalisation? There are plenty of good state schools and plenty of crap private ones that get by on snob value.

My own crass generalisation would be that I'm very glad ds doesn't go to the independent school we walk past to get to his state school. The bloody parents live up to the private school stereotype, blocking the road with their blasted brand new, top of the range, 4x4s, insisting on doing 47 point turns instead of driving round the block, and blocking the pavement because they are too busy braying about their ski-ing holidays to think to leave any room for mere state school children to get past (or even to hear common people saying 'excuse me').

Xenia, If 50% of how children turn out is genetics, then you must have been extremely fortunate that your own children have turned out so well rounded and successful. You're always telling us what a crap husband you chose! What are the odds or 5 children not inheriting any of the crapness??!!

Eb I never heard Xenia dissing her dh but I do wonder how much she know about genetics. Genetically I chose well on the academic front. DP's family have some exceptionally gifted academic people. At least three of his close family were exceptional. Trouble is a couple of them clearly are insane too. Now I have often wondered if there is a link.

Just nipping in to point out that (a) my daughter's state school is bloody good, and I am absolutely delighted that she is there (b) I rather like being a journalist, and am really fairly good at it, but I'm sure my income is bloody paltry by er Some People's Standards. And my partner has done a number of extremely rewarding and worth-while jobs which were paid peanuts.

lol

Look at the results from the human genome project and some of those studies published in the Times last year that on some bases it doesn't matter much what you do to your children - they are set as they are at birth which is scarey but quite true. Obviously you have some impact.

But no one can question that private schools are better htan state schools on the whole. Obviously some children at both kinds of schools aren't happy or mess up their exams but over all private schools do better. It's not a very controversial statement, surely? All I was saying is people shouldn't get to upset about it - think laterally and consider ways to earn more and pay fees if you feel you want your children at those schools and then also remember most children don't go there and do okay and remember how important the home is to children until they come under the influence of their peers in their teens.

...have I ever said the children turned out well rounded and successful? It's hard to tell yet. They are all still in education. Their father had some good points obviously anyway as we all do.

Noone at my son's Independent school messed up their GCSEs last year nor the year before that. 100% of the pupils got 5 GCSEs at grades A-C (and about 98% got 5 at grades A* or A). Having said that it is academically selective, you don't get in unless you pass the entrance exam. Also I suppose the high fees mean that it is selective from the point of view that most parents would not be willing to pay £14K per annum for a day place plus unis plus trips plus extras unless they felt strongly about education in the first place. Some struggle to pay the fees and draw down from their mortgage etc others pay fees out of their petty cash and probably don't notice. Some people say they can't afford Independen fees yet have a higher disposable income than others who manage to afford it. Some people would rather spend money on their cars than their children's education. A lot of State school teachers send their children to Independent schools and they are poor earners and also have inside knowledge of what the state system has to offer.

We all make individual choices and I don't see anything wrong with speaking up for the choice you have made. I have no problem with people indulging in the State system - and surely me paying to educate my children independently means that there is more money in the state education budget for others, so why does anyone object to Independent schools so much. Isn't it better to concentrate on how you can improve your own life and your children's life chances rather than looking over your shoulder, expending energy on spoiling someone else's life and their choices (which they pay for out of their own money!).