Please talk some sense into me! Am feeling jealous of ds' peers starting indepndent schools!

[bobsmum]

I went to a great school - very well known in Scotland. I loved it from start to finish.

Ds is about to start school in August and wil be going to a lovely, tiny rural primary with 5 other children in P1.

But today when I picked him up at nursery, one of his group was wearing the school uniform for my old school. I had almost a physical reaction to it and nearly filled up. I've been feeling a bit sick ever since and I can only assume it's jealousy.

I'm aware that ds will get a great education in the state system - particularly in the primary school he's about to start.

Dh and I will never be able to afford an independent education for our children. I'm obviously comparing buildings/resources/teachers/children constantly. I'm aware that I have to just deal with this attitude or I'll get myself into trouble.

Tell me to be happy with what I've got. Tell me the grass isn't greener (even though it looks pretty lush IME)

Also Ds has a few issues atm and is seeing an EdPsych. I'm always wondering what a better resourced, better funded school could do for him.

I admired my friend's sons' 10K a year prep school's:

Fine old building- oh, they're admin offices, the classrooms, many portable, are out the back.

Sweeping lawns- oh the boys aren't allowed on THEM and when they are, they're not allowed to run or sit on the grass.

Music lessons in yr 3- oh, they're extra cirricular and we have to pay extra for them.

Swimming opportunities- oh, they get shipped to a community college for those

Billy Bunter uniform- ah, 6 different uniforms required including different ones for rugby and football, blazer at 100 quid a pop for a 7 year old, an elbow repair requiring it to be sent away for 2 weeks and 35 quid.

Really, who's kidding who? So much of what independent schools offer is a chimera. They're much better at selling themselves that state schools thus can blind us with their glory, when, in fact, you may only be getting say one or 2 thousand quid's worth of 'additional extra' over and above what the state sector provides. More or less for free!

I went to a well-regarded state grammar when the vast majority of us in an 11+ era were from the local state primaries. I felt a pang that my DSs were never likely to go to the grammar-(we can't afford the private prepping necessary and, if they need it, they aren't what I regard as grammar material anyway). In the course of my work I encountered work-experience girls from my old school. To a woman they were poised, confident- um and arrogant, smug and imbued with such an unshakeable belief in their own entitlement it wasn't funny. I'm not sure I'd want to buy into that TBH!

Miljee - What a lot of good sense you talk - most of that had me ROFL, it sounds so familiar to what I remember, especially the bit about lawns and temporary classrooms hidden round the back. Interestingly the friends I have retained from my schooldays are predominantly the ones I made while at State primary.

We looked at a number of private schools for dd and chose a possible one that she loved but it went against my values so we sent her to the state primary.

I get the most awful guilt when I drive past aspecially as she recgonises it or when I talk to my friends who have children there as I know my dd would have thrived there.

But dd is very happy at her school and I know she would not want to change now.

Thanks Miljee - we had temporary classrooms in junior and secondary school - I'd forgotten about that!

oh it's so difficult isn't it? I have 2 children at independent school and my 3rd is starting at a state primary in Sept. We do hope to send her to indep school later on, but I still feel a real pang when I compare the schools.

However I really think that there are so many advantages to going to state school, and your ds will be benefitting from the biggest benefit of private schools -small class size.

and my ds (who is at the private school) also has special needs, and would get far more (free) help if he was in the state system - he suffered because of the large classes in the state system, but got OT and Physio and Speech therapy when he was in the state system - all free!

Good points Pollyanna - I do wonder whether ds would have blended into the wallpaper at, say, my old school and been disciplined a lot more rather than having therapists chucked at him left right and centre.

Although in his case maybe a bit of both would have been good. His council nursery is great but very woolly when it comes to behaviour

94% of children go to state schools and most do fine. It' snot worth worrying about. Why did you go to a good school and yet end up in a job which means you can't afford school fees though? Was that a conscious career choice? I'm always interested in how people end up how they do.

I think I know the sort of feeling you're describing. I recently had lunch with a very old friend who is about to buy a house that costs so much money my eyes practically watered when she told me the price. A bit of envy maybe but so fleeting that it barely matters.

Xenia - is no job worth doing unless it pays well enough to afford independent school fees? I'm genuinely interested to know if this is what you really think.

I didn't say that but one thing people think about in picking jobs is whether they will be able to educate their children as they want to do. If you don't care about school fees then that won't be a factor.

Envy is the more interesting issue, one of the seven deadly sins, I think but very commomn. It's hard sometimes to see the glass half full rather than half empty. There is always someone better off and always someone worse off in all senses.

I also think people limit themselves and that if you decide I will do XYZ then you can do it so if someone really wants to pay school fees then think of a way to achieve that.

Look you just want what's best for your kid and at this moment in time you are thinking maybe private schooling would do that. You have got to think differently. You obviously care about ed and that by far is the biggest factor in a child's academic success.

Xenia a lot of people pick jobs before they even think about having kids.

Well people can change jobs. The world is full of possibilities to be taken.

There is a lot to be sadi for being satisfied with where you are and being grateful.I went to a top notch independent school and my ds is at a state school and I am riddles with hang ups and insecurites and he is full of confidence and a real zest for life and learning.Things are not always what they seem on the surface your sons school sounds great

Sorry if this if off OP but I think a recent poster here has hit the nail on the head more than they'd intended. It was the one about how come one went to a 'good school' yet can't afford school fees for one's own children? To all intents and purposes, I'm English, but I left the UK at 24 20 years ago. I returned 4 years ago, married (to an Australian) with 2 DSs. The thing that so strikes me about the 'modern UK' is how disgustingly money and greed driven it has become. How other human beings are so judged by their income, how big their house is, whether they can afford private education, and if not, how wily have they been in scamming the state education system in advantaging their own children to the detriment of others? ('Stupid suckers who weren't smart enough to play the game'). It's so shockingly superficial and, well, morally corrupt. What IS this all about? This kind of thing was considered ill-mannered and vulgar in the England I left in 1988 and now it seems perectly OK to openly judge others by these scurrilous indicators.

FWIW, my job has meaning. I'm an NHS radiographer. My husband is an NHS help desk manager. Together we earn 40K a year pre tax. On that we will never be able to 'afford private' for our DSs but when I read remarks like that from someone who perhaps ought to know better, I realise that the value system that SOME private oriented families aspire to is not for me or mine and am glad I do not have to wrestle with my conscience. If state is good enough for 94% of the population, it's good enough for me. Please do not throw at me statistics purporting that '47% of the population would go private if they could' as it is hogwash. I think we should ask a) why 53% WOULDN'T choose private if it is so bleedin' marvellous, and b) whether the question asked was "Would you like to be able to choose an education for your child that suits your child and is perfectly tailored towards your child's strengths and weaknesses?". A private school no more necessarily provides that than a state school. The grass may LOOK greener but that's because they put 'x' amount of your school fees into paying a gardener (at minimum wage) to green that there grass up!

great post, miljee.

Xenia,Income is one factor in picking a job. There are plenty of other reasons that are important too - stimulation, satisfaction, the kind of people you'll be mixing with..... integrity. I know plenty of people who earn vast salaries but I wouldn't do their jobs because a) the job is intellectually vacuous b) the job is making not an iota of positive difference to anyones's life or c) the job is actually about screwing people. I think you'll find there are many other people who also think there's more to life than earning shed loads of money through ripping society off.

But people only write that if they can't afford it.... if you can pay you can usually buy better than in the state system (with a few exceptions but not many) better on most scores.

I hope most people judge others on the intrinsic worth. What has happened to the UK in the time you describe is people have stopped taking their chidlren to church, teaching them right and wrong and not inculcating morality into them. They go shopping on Sundays instead of being on their knees etc. I hope my children with their expensive educations have had a better education morally than had they gone to state schools and I'm sure they have. They no more judge people on how much money they have than their colour or sexual orientation.

My only point below was if private schooling isimportant to the poster then go forth and procure it. Tehre are all manner of ways from scholarships to second jobs, from getting jobs in the school concerned to starting a business. See an aim and seize it. It could be fun.

Yes, eb but you make your bed and lie in it. My children's friends at univesrity aren't idiots. They know the girl working of a pittance in the art gallery unless she marries well will never buy a London flat or even a car at this rate whereas the bankers, lawyers have more choices and enjoy their work. it's something most of us should think about at age 14 - 16 when we pick careers if we have half a brain as most children do - that XYZ job is badly paid and that means you'll never buy your own home and a new pair of shoes for the children will be a struggle and jobs ABC means private schools, nice house etc.

to reply to xenia: at age 14-16 when choosing careers I will be telling my dcs to go for whatever makes them happy and fulfills them. the finances etc will sort themselves out. the girl in the art gallery is probably much happier than those forced through independent school / uni / graduate scheme. if a bit poorer. though she may become world-leading curator and write books and be editor of an art magazine, or become a famous rock star or something creative like that, for all we know. if we all followed xenia's advice there would be fewer great musicians / artists, many of whom are drop-outs etc.

so, her children may not go to independent school, but if she is happy and fulfillled she'll probably be a great mother and her children will thrive in the state sector. And if more people thought like this, to value things other than money, maybe the state sector would start to pick up? and we might all become happier? x

It's been a very long time since I met a happy lawyer!

Miljee interesting ot her your obs on the UK you left and today's UK.

Xenia I hope my kid morals are influenced by me and their Dad not by their school.

Ah - yes my choice of career - fair dos. That could be part of my guilt.

Ok - well I left school with very good exam results and then left a good university with a very good degree and was asked by my professor to consider staying on to do a Masters and/or Phd.

I thought long and hard and realised that academia was not for me and I wanted/felt drawn to do something else.

Did a gap year as a youth and childrens worker on £25 a week and loved it. Met dh and we agreed that it was important to make sure I could continue in youth work, while he had the conventional bill paying job. To be honest I'm really good at it and I make a difference in kids lives.

I've got two children now and I'm looking after them full time during the day. I do a bit of unpaid youth work when I'm not working in the evenings or weekends at my new job.

Obviously my career choice has eliminated some choices for my children. But like you say there are still options like burasries and scholarships. Although ds is bright, he's not academically gifted. But he is exceptionally musical ( a bit of a talking point locally which is quite disconcerting!), so maybe, for him, that will be an avenue worth exploring.

I don't regret what I've done work wise over the last 10 years. Not that it feels like work, it's definitely a vocation on many levels; intensely satisfying, rewarding and humbling.

But I am feeling a bit more inspired to do some more creative thinking about the whole education thing.

A PGCE for me and a job in a good independent school would mean 1/2 fees. Similarly if dh trained for the ministry we'd get half fees at my old school (but he'd have to be Church of Scotland.

And if it comes to it I'll use what I've benefitted from to make up for any shortfalls (if there are any?) that ds and dd may encounter. I didn't win a Latin recitation competition for nothing you know

The qualities that will help people pick up jobs now are less based on having being coached through exams.
My dh works for an investment bank and the candidates he picks at interview are the ones who he thinks he would enjoy working with.
This is regardless of qualifications...we are not completely sure that dh has gcse maths himself.
In chosing a school or system I would always go for the one that enables people to get along with anybody. For us here, in our position we chose state without any question that that is doing our children a disservice. The contrary.
Yes the private uniforms are cute.
But for careers, they do not help a jot.
I went to private school and I think it made me an arrogant arse...or maybe that's just me.

gag, that's true. I think my eldest just got her first job on personality (although I very very much doubt that was caused by her school, she was born very outgoing unlike some of the other children) as on her degree. She was the only person on the assessment day who hadn't been to Oxbridge.

bm, that's interesting. I do think there are ways to get what people want if they think laterally. We knew two teachers male and female and they had 3 children on virtually free fees at the private prep school my ex husband worked at where their mother taught and then at 13 they went free to the boarding school where their father taught at. Also my son got a music scholarship at 13 and a third off the fees to his school. Or imagine setting up a nationwise scheme for doing proper before and after school care or selling consultancy services to the Government on that. You could help literally thousands of children by doing that and make money. You could help more than you can help on an individual basis and it's huge market at the moment presumably not that I've researched it and it needs to be done properly so children get the right mix of homework supervision, exercise and safety.