BOTH DSs in mixed year classes in Sept. Help me believe this won't all go horribly wrong!

[miljee]

DS1 is in junior school. He's 8 (just) and in yr 3 in a 3/4 class, 8 x yr 3s, 20 x yr 4s, ie 28 kids. Over this last term it's finally been 'working' for him. His mates are 2 yr 3 girls, 2 yr 4 girls and 2 yr 4 boys. Educationally it's been fair to middling as the incoming yr 3s, being smaller in number weren't guided as well as they might be (not changing library books, not knowing where to queue for lunch etc) and we saw quite a bit of less desirable 9 year old boy behaviour being copied by our then 7 year old DS! Anyway, he's finally getting the measure of it- SO, All Change! In Sept he'll be one of 12 x yr 4s in a 3/4 class with 20 x yr 3s, ie the minority (again) in a class of 32. I'm expecting some regression and some boredom as the teacher's time is taken up with larger numbers of year 3s and meeting their needs. The classes are divided up purely on gender/friendship lines and streamed for core subjects. And one additional moan whilst I'm here- THIS year yr 4s, come September will be in pure year 5 classes of 25 apiece..

DS2 is in yr 1 and is just 6. He's not particularly bright and is easily distracted. We've just been told how the Infants are going to be chopped and changed around in Sept. There are 40 kids currently in yr R and 40 in yr 1, 4 classes. In Sept they'll form 3 classes of 27 apiece: 1 pure year 1, one 1/2 mix, one pure year 2. Guess which class my DS2 gets? Again, bigger class, 2 year age differential. I expect to see a fair bit of '5 year old boy behaviour' being modelled there, too. I guess I'm a tad disturbed to have it spelled out to me that DS2 is DEFINITELY in the bottom 3rd of his class. I'm trying to see it in terms of ability -appropriate learning etc but I keep getting sidetracked into 'being humiliated by kids 2 years his junior'. In his SATS year. The current class he's in has 12 boys in it and they're all pretty good kids. There are no gangs, no real nastiness, and there seems to be no bullying at all. So All Change there, as well.

I know we're all over-anxious about our DCs and fret about things they take with a pinch of salt but I wish I could shake the feeling that they may both emerge from their respective classes in July 08 having gained nothing except how to behave like a child at least a year younger than themselves.

Incidentally, a final aside- the Queen is in our town this morning so we could take the DCs out of school to see her if we wanted to. I'm not up for the 500,000 crowd who'll do just that so DCs went to school. There were 6 kids in DS2's line. Must be what an exclusive private school feels like!

I have to say, my experiences of mixed-age classes have been nothing but positive. All 3 of my children have been in such classes, both as the older and the younger ones, and it worked really well.

In general, our school has the default of single-age classes, but it always comes down to numbers and how they are spread across the school, and of course how this affects funding, so many years there are mixed-age classes. This year it's only the Yr1/2 children affected, other years it's been right across the school. Except Yr6, which has never to my knowledge been mixed. I don't know of any school in our town which doesn't always or sometimes have mixed classes.

It's largely up to the teachers to make it work, and there is no reason it shouldn't. To be honest, they should be used to dealing with a wide range of ability and behaviour - some of my teacher friends say they have had much larger spreads of ability in single age-group classes than in mixed ones, it just depends on the mix of children.

I've helped out a lot in school when my lot were in mixed-age classes and watched the dynamics and how the teachers dealt with the children, and there seemed to be no problems. Nothing that would not occur in a single-age class.

At our school there was a huge fuss many years ago when the first mixed classes were introduced, but most parents soon found their fears were groundless. Some still fuss every year if their child isn't in the class they wanted or with the people they wanted them to be with, but that's life. My youngest had been with his best friend for 4 years but for the past 2 has been in the 'other' class, but they are still great friends in and out of school.

Can you have a chat with some of the teachers or perhaps the head to talk about some of your concerns. Hopefully it won't be as negative as you fear.

TBH I think with DS1 one of my main reasons for my 'irritation' is that the current yr 4s suddenly will, despite us all being told they'd be in a 5/6 combo next school year, be in pure yr 5 classes of 25 apiece instead. This same group of children last year, when in yr 3 had three x classes of 22, all purely year 3; whilst OURS who were in yr 2 at that time were in a mega-class of 36, albeit with 2 (part time! ) teachers. Compare it to our guys who will be in 3/4 combos of 32 children apiece! I believe it's got something to do with the chairman of the board of governors child being in yr 4 right now.. I feel the school might give a bit more consideration to exactly WHICH year group it's 'penalising' each time. My DS1 has, out of a potential 36 children been with just 4 of them in his class consistently since year R! Whilst I'd agree this could be seen to be teaching him versatility etc etc, one could also say it's hardly worth him making any close friends if forces beyond his control ALWAYS split them up at the end of each school year! Whilst other kids gets to stay in-class with their mates for 7 years in a row.

AS for DS2, a different kettle of fish: With him my chief concern is that if a current small class of 20 supportive same-aged kids; PIPS club (additional literacy support), and being on the school's 'in-house' register of low grade SEN haven't managed to 'kick start' him, what hope does he have in a yr 1/2 combination class of 27?

I believe I really will have to go into the school and look into this further!

nothing but negative from my experience, DC was in with a younger year group several times over, I went to see headteacher no joy,

If I had my time again I would have removed from school as soon as I knew what the position was (never knew till september)

Hi Miljee

I have experience of mixed classes in infants and juniors.

My DS (Yr 4)has been in a large mixed group as a Year 3 pupil and a small mixed group as a Year 4 pupil. On the whole I think the latter has suited him best, but neither has been a negative experience.

My DD1 (Yr 1) has just moved into a mixed group with Yr 2 (due to relocation). For her it has a been a huge positive.

My perception is that because the teacher expects there to be a huge spectrum of development and intellectual requirements, they tailor it accordingly, whereas my impression before was that they would try and get the whole year group to achieve a "norm".

By the way, I suspect you live near me as the Queen was down the road today! I live in a village having relocated from a town. If you are unhappy with the large mixed groups, have you considered moving to a nearby village school where classes are smaller, albeit inevitably mixed groups?

Quite a few kids at our school come from other villages and from the local town and are very much part of the school family.

Hi, spring! Where are you? Give me a clue! We're at the only infant/junior combo left in town (C.), tho' we live at NB (renting). Had an interesting conversation yesterday which has helped me a lot. We went to a yr 1 birthday party. Several of our yr 1 parents are, TBH, a tad 'precious' (vast majority are 'first time around') and never leave their kids at parties but lurk on the side lines. I was going to drop'n'run but this turned out to be one of our first opportunities to discuss this whole 'year grouping' thing. So whilst 13 x 6 year old boys and 1 girl (!) shrieked their way thru a footy party at Totton, we chatted. Turns out one father is ABSOLUTELY LIVID! They've ordered prospectuses from The Stroud, Hampshire Collegiate, phoned Halterworth, the lot! TBH the boy involved (who is a friend of my somewhat immature DS2) has an 'early' birthday but will be in the Y1/2, NOT the Y2 class. BUT the issue is the wee lad is really rather dyspraxic and barely articulate, facts not accepted by his parents. His only 'above average' skill is in reading. He really does belong in a 'younger set', as does MY DS2. As another mum said, there's an awful lot of 'good' and advanced older kids also being put in Y1/2 so I'm feeling rather more relaxed about it. It's fair to say we have no idea, really what criteria the school have used to select the Y1/2 and Y2 classes- there seems to be no common theme at all and this could have been handled rather better, but I can imagine it'd be very difficult to articulate their reasons without causing a riot as we do seem to have rather a lot of 'middle-class' Y1 parents who really do feel their child is a bit of a genius, a fact not recognised by the school!

Hi Miljee - is your town C? If so I am confused as I thought you were in R. We are in a village north of R.

In all honesty, I don't know what to add about mixed classes as it may be a wait and see situation. There are so many variables that go into making a child happy at school -peer group, playmates, class size, teacher, head teacher, etc. that it would be hard to pin it down to just age and ability.

If the place seems a happy place then that is probably the most important bit - an environment that nurtures produces happy kids (I trust!)

Anyway, v intrigued as to where you are!

I was in a mixed class in school myself in what was then year 3 4 (10 - 11). I think it was excellent- it gave them more ability to target the needs of each pupil, and although as an 11 year old I was a bit at the time, it worked excellently and I think I progressed kmore that year than any other- they also used that year to put in pace G&T classes (which I was in for English) and Sn classes (me for Maths- complex, moi? LOL)

AS a less bright child I think your son will benefit tbh- I was educated alongside the less bright older children in maths and it did enable me to progress quite well.

Ive just found out which classes my dds will be in this september. Eldest will be in a class with mostly her age group & a few younger ones, but my soon to be year 2 child will be in a class with mostly year 3s & a newly qualified teacher. When I asked the current teacher how she thought dd would cope she said academically dd would be ok, but for social reasons (dd is quite immature & has trouble relating to her peers) she would of prefered her to stay in the yr1/2 class. Unfortunately though some of them had to go up to make room for the reception children going into yr 1 Dd herself is actually pleased as punch to be going into the year 3 class with the clever ones
Ive actually been considering changing their school because of shortage of possible friends, but I may see how things go in september now with their new teachers.

Sorry Spring! Just reread my post and I realise I have confused the issue; The town IS R and the school is C.! Are you in the village of Br? or KS?!

I now also realise another factor which I can see could put some of our parents up in arms: As with DS1 (see my first post- he's in big 3/4 groups but the yr 5 will be in small 'pure' classes!),- what the infant school are doing is moving the other current yr 1 class of 20 (in its entirety) into the pure Yr 2 class, THEN adding just 5 of OUR year 1 class to them to complete that class; the remaining 15 kids in our class will then be joined by 10 from the current Reception to make their new Y1/2 class. Also, the PURE year 2 class gets one (popular) teacher fulltime whereas we get one teacher for 4 days and one for 1 day. So really, I'm 'annoyed' because whilst I can see that there would bound to be mixed classes etc what with falling birthrates, BOTH of my DSs have fallen into the 'disadvantaged' group when compared with other classes around theirs.

Hi Miljee

Neither Brrr or KS - I am in lovely L.

I think you should ring the head teacher and ask for an explanation (in a very non-confrontational way of course!).

"L" is indeed pleasant- don't kids from there go to the Salisbury grammars? Don't they go from everywhere in a 50 mile radius??

Several parents are going in to speak to the headteacher. I imagine in a deeply confrontational manner, TBH! I shall extract the relevant explanation(s) from them via the time-honoured method of Playground Gossip. Actually, the ideal forum would be A Meeting for all involved parents but, as my DH has said, the one-to-one approach allows her to tell each parent a version of events that will satify THEM, and, inevitably in a mass school-hall meeting, you'll always get some 'unpleasantness' and risk politicising some parents who otherwise were just along for a bit of information.

miljee - yes, I am just finding these things out as I have only just moved here - lots of parents apply to S grammars here so for me this becomes an issue quite soon with my eldest.

Re Cat's comments on NQTs - at our last school in Yorkshire my experience of NQTs was that they had energy, passion and skill in abundance - they may have alcked experience but they more than made up for that in their imagination and innovative approaches eg my ds's teacher used to get them to clap rythyms to calm them while waiting for pm registration. Then he did a timed race to see how quickly they could get through registration - he had total focus from his class. These are just examples of stuff I saw when I went in to help with reading.

Agree about the NQT's being high on the enthusiasm and energy front so are often excellent - but they have equivalent of one day per week away from class (PPA time which all teachers get plus NQT training time) so if you are very lucky that day would be covered by a regular "old and experienced" teacher so you get the best of both worlds as DS had in reception.

For the past 2 years I have taught moxed Y1/Y2 in an infant school and despite initial reservations it has worked well. Although we all prefer really to teach single age classes we have had to mix them for reasons beyond our control ie numbers and money!! I can totally understand your concerns as I have had many parents coming to me in the past with similar ones. All I can say is that as a trained and experienced teacher I endeavour to do my best to meet the needs of every child in the class and I'm sure your children's teachers will too. I do think it has positive benfits for both age groups and although it is a lot of work for the teacher re more planning and organisation I have found it wholly positive. Please speak to the teacher's about your concerns, I'm sure they will try to reassure you as much as they can. Explain what you are worried about. I would be happy to talk a parent in this situation. I am on maternity leave at the moment and am actually going back to a Year 1 class in October but in a way I will mix having the two different age groups and two different perspectives to draw on - I never thought I would say that!

Thanks for all the input. Cat64, I think you may have confused me with another poster re NQTs- I don't have a problem with them at all! In fact, I believe one of the reasons so many of our infant school's teachers will go part time next year is to keep them all at the school for the day when the numbers go up (there's a vast new housing estate on the books nearby) rather than risk losing highly regarded and experienced teachers- we don't have many NQTs at all.

Anyway, I heard THE EXPLANATION from the ballistic father who did go in to see the Head-

"We're aware that it was YOUR children who 'suffered' a string of supply teachers in year R when their usual teacher was off on sickleave for 3 months; We're aware that YOUR children have had a 4:1 part-time teacher mix THIS year- but the other year 1 class haven't had experience in anything other than continuous fulltime teaching so we figured YOUR kids were used to it so could put up with more disruption." (ie part time teachers AND a mixed age group).

THERE'S your hours of agonised deliberation and careful thought that went into this decision!

Also, re the Year 5 business, no, they had 3 x classes of 22 apiece in year 3 and will have 3 x classes of 25 apiece in year 5. Whichever way you look at it, I think we can all see the hand of the Chairman of the Board of Governors at work here! Why don't they take the 10 brightest/most able kids from my DS1's year 4, put them in with the year 5s and make the year 5 classes next year 28-29 strong and ours in Yr3/4, 28-29 instead of 32?

I fully understand that many school have funding issues and have to juggle classes and class sizes but we appear to be 'victims' of "Let's make it fair by 'penalising' Year R THIS year, year 1 NEXT year and yr 2 the year after that"- overlooking the fact it's the same bunch of kids involved every year!

Sounds very frustrating. My children's school has a fair amount of mixed year classes, and it isn't ideal. They will go down to single form entry next year (falling birth rates in our area, over the last couple of years we have had a merger, and two other schools are also going to single form entry). ds has not yet had a mixed year class, but he has been in a class of between 32-36 this year. The school said that this was because they didn't think mixing junior and infants was appropriate. But they did set up a special meeting to tell us how they were going to manage it, with extra teaching support and the use of extra rooms for group work. It seems to have worked OK, although ds has been in a fair amount of trouble this year, which is probably a combination of too much distraction and stronger discipline (the main teacher is also the deputy head). dd is in a mixed yr1/yr2 class, but it's only 24 and she has had the same teacher as she had in reception, who she gets on with very well. My only concern there is that dd finds it hard to make friends. Her best friend from reception left to go to another school (she moved house) and she has now made very good friends with a little girl from yr2, so next year they will proabbly be in different classes. So on that front I do think it is disruptive. On the other hand, if dd had been born a week earlier she would have been in yr2 anyway, and I think that the stretch has been great (she's done a fair amount of yr2 work this year). Our school does it strictly on an age basis to avoid problemes with parents, so it's all quite transparent.