Good ofsted with poor SATS

[Beba11]

Hi there,
If any professionals or anyone with knowledge about Sats and ofsted could enlighten me... The junior school which my boys will eventually go to had a good ofsted result for 2017. Apparently it was only a few points away from an outstanding. However, the SATS results for 2017 were really bad, one of the worse in the are. I don't understand how this can be? The previous ofsted was requires improvement so not sure if a Knick on effect but then how can ofsted and sats be so out of sync?

Sorry for typos! I think you understand...

Low SATS results might be an issue with a cohort of low ability DC who have, in fact, made good progress. Progress is a better measure of a school's performance.

I would go with Ofsted over Sats results any day.
I work in a school and I'm a mum. I'd scrap Sats tomorrow if I could.

Some schools are very very pushy on SATS and don’t give a shit about anything else, even to the point of off-rolling lower performing or SEN kids. But then get outstandingly by ofsted. It’s a bloody crap system.

It is about progress. I worked in an outstanding school where the outcomes were below national average but they had 97% children making better than expected progress. Those that did not were children who had either just started school as a mid year admission or were children with quite profound needs who still made progress but at their own pace. The children came in with very very low starting points but the progress was incredible.

What size is the class? In a small class one student's results can have more effect.

Tbh our school are similar but it was terrible cohort for yr6 in 2016/2017.

It is about progress as others have said. My son attended a special school which had three outstanding Ofsted reports in a row.

If a school has a lot of SEN children in a cohort, particularly in a small school, it can drag results down. As others have said, progress is very important.

Also, ofsted won’t just have looked at one year group. They will have looked at the progress all the children are making. Where schools have been RI, it can take a while to turn it around. The children who achieved the poorer Sats results experienced a poor school. They probably didn’t get good teaching and probably didn’t make good progress as a result. Possibly for the whole of the time they were at the school. There could have been a lot of near misses too.

Ofsted would look at what school has done to improve, what effect it is having and what the children are now on target to achieve. They would do that by evidence of Work books, assessment of teaching and all the detailed evidence the school will have provided on the progress of the children.

I too would take more notice of Ofsted but I would expect to see the school keeping up the improvement that Ofsted saw.

My Ds teacher has made comments about my ds’s cohort in comparison to other years . They have been teaching year 6 for many years but ours stands out for various reasons . Our Sats aren’t out yet but we may well be out of sync with other years

The average progress score for maths and reading was well below average while writing was average. This is what worries me. On paper the data looks quite bad. It may well have been that year suffered from the requires improvement period. It's just reading the ofsted report, it sounds so positive and great that I can't understand how this data corresponds.

Just need to point out that not all SEN kids are academically behind though, some may pull up the overall mark.

I'd suggest talking to the head as they will be able to provide reasons for it and also let you know how they intend to improve.

Have you looked at previous years results?

Yes previous year was better, not by miles but better than last year.

It might tell you a lot about your area (which you probably already know) such as lots of children are from backgrounds who are starting from lower starting points - so the school might do well by these children and deliver good progress, but in national terms, the majority are still not high performers.

I would be interested to know how they perform and the value they add for children like your child - can you find results for those who were low, medium and high achievers at the end of KS1? Then see how they do for your type of child.

If I were looking at schools, I would be interested to see how many children of a similar ability to my child are in a school - yes, it's great if the school can do well for some or all abilities, but it's also nice to think there would be a decent sized cohort of children of a similar ability for your own child to work with, whether that is higher or lower ability. Most people won't feel so keen on a school where their child will be an outlier, no matter how good it is at dealing with everyone else. I guess bigger schools have more chance of more children of different abilities.

And yes to asking to chat about the results - ask for a longer term trend and see if the explanations sound sensible or defensive.

Cohort makes a massive difference, especially in smaller schools. That's not just about SEN - academic success is affected by loads of things including attendance, parental support, whether a child gets really nervous in tests, whether they just had a bad day. Obviously some of those things are partly to do with the school, but not entirely. There seems to be a tendency these days to blame every poor result on the school - but it's not just all about the teaching!! I used to work with statistics, and I'm amazed how much reliance is put on percentages in primary education, which are meaningless with such small numbers.

In theory, progress should be a better indicator, but even that isn't straightforward. If a teacher at KS1 is a bit over-optimistic with grades (and that happens a lot!), then the KS2 progress scores look shit - but actually that child is doing as well as they could have done.

I agree with others, look at the school, look at the intake, talk to the parents, talk to the Head, and read the Ofsted report closely (don't just look at the grade).

There is a very strong correlation between high quality teaching and children making good progress. In school the term “quality first teaching” isn’t used as a gimmick. It’s a vital component of a good school.

Schools now make a very detailed assessment of children’s work. Parents, however, will not see the details of all the other children, just their own. Ofsted do see the progress data and verify it through their inspection regime. Parents just cannot do that so reading the report closely is key.

Children may have scored in the high 90s in their Sats and just missed the magic 100. These scores could represent fantastic progress. Just 1-2% below 100% can be good but is considered a “fail” by casual observers. If you saw that 90% of children had made good or excellent progress throughout their time in the school you might have a different view.

Many junior schools work with the local infant school to ensure consistency of evaluation. Good schools work together so KS1 assessment is not over gilded!

The other key info is the comparison with other similar schools - benchmarking! Comparing like with like is important because not all schools are in very middle class leafy lane areas where parents all have degrees! Thalassa makes good points but teaching quality is vital and we all know a succession of supply teachers is bad news! Many parents cannot bridge the gap that is left if children are not well taught because most are not familiar with the curriculum or how to differentiate.

I think often separate junior schools find it harder to show good progress than a full primary. Because the separate infant school has an incentive to overstate KS1 results, which are self assessed. One of the reasons why infant schools are 3 times as likely to get outstanding Ofsted compared to junior schools.

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-infant-schools-three-times-likely-juniors-get-top-ofsted-rating (My source of info)

Mamamamama... good point, well made. Have often wondered about this.

I’m not sure which I trust least, OFSTED or SATS. If I was going through all this again I’d try to find parents whose judgement you trust with kids a bit older than yours and see what they say and also go to the school yourself and view a class in action on a normal school day. SATS can be clouded by cohort effects and be very volatile in smaller schools. The wealth of the intake neighbourhood is a huge factor. We tried an OFSTED-good primary and removed our kids after a year or two appalled at the lack of teaching to ability and level of evangelism.

Try finding a parent you trust! That’s a massive problem. Ofsted don’t look at evangelism. Sometimes parents are a square peg in a round hole and the ethos doesn’t suit. Most community schools don’t have such zeal!

Parents find it very difficult to judge good progress. They see results but progress is more difficult. There have been many instances where parents think a school is great because it’s caring and like a family, but teaching and progress are poor. The parents support it but Ofsted won’t like that. I think with the new framework and a recent inspection, it’s Ofsted over parents due to data interpretation and being experts in the field of education. Old outstanding ofsted grades definitely should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I’m generally rather more in favour of rigorous data analysis rather than anecdotes, but in terms of finding an expert to provide an opinion, a local doctor or vet with an older kid at a school is good start. In Oxfordshire PhDs in STEM stuff are not uncommon at school gates either! And let’s
not pretend that an OFSTED report is jam
packed with rigorous statistical analysis justifying the classification either. Their metrics these days include a whole pile of crap I do not care about and I need an assessment based on: academic focus on core subjects; encouraging academic excellence by good revision training and entering academic competitions; good pastoral; strong musical instrument lesson provision; sensible sports like swimming. The absence of damaging or time wasting garbage including godcrap, holistic lala; rugby & horse riding; a head with attendance fascist leanings can also be easily found out from a few conversations with intelligent parents. (That list reflects exasperation with both state and private primaries). I’m all for experts interpreting the hard facts. I’m not convinced that OFSTED is a reliable place to find them especially until the influence of one M Gove is wiped from the universe.