Are top state schools harder to get into than top private school in London?

[ramennoddles]

I was just wondering if it is more difficult to get into a top grammar school like Henrietta Barnett or Tiffin's Girls School than say Westminster or City?

This is so interesting. I have 3 DC ; the older 2 went to state super selectives( admittedly the first school is more selective than the second) and DC 3 went to a very selective independent school( he isn't through the end yet so am not able to compare well)
DC 1 did well at school and although failed at pool stage for Cambridge went to the top university for their subject.Teaching was generally good but was very much geared to exams and results and there were constant personnel changes . DC was not a hard worker but by anyone's standards did well . All their peers were well motivated and kept each other moving forward despite gaps in teaching . They all did well. There were various social problems that my DC kept clear of but that were poorly handled imo but at the end of 7 years they survived and School could chalk up their achievements.
DC 2 went to a better run school but looking back their minor sen was not recognised . The 11+ tested on quite narrow grounds and then rather expected all DC to be homogenous. After a few years of reduced motivation we removed DC but they did not really engage further with education.Opportunity lost and wrong School for that particular child.We were influenced by the finances as in grammar area and particularly at that time the state options were poor.They have improved since then.
For DC3 we didn't push 11+ , by which I mean no tutoring or significant practice. We felt that they were immature at just 10 and weren't sure of their academic potential. Obviously we were concerned after our experience with DC2.They did pretest for vg independent but we kept our options open. They did well in CE so we went ahead with current School.Teaching and stretching of young people is excellent and much less exam focussed than the grammars. The results are on a par with the grammars even though some did not get in to grammars . The wider education in terms of discussion, reading etc is much better. The parents cohort is quite similar; professionals , 2 incomes, city types and some own successful businesses.Grandparents are often supporting fees.Small number of overseas rich kids but academic expectations are high and everyone toes the line. Smaller classes mean teaching and targets are very individual. I am not aware of poor results meaning that one would be asked to leave. I asked DC about this and they agreed. At the grammars now, sixth form entry has become very competitive and lots have to leave if they don't reach the standard. An extra pressure for 16 year olds that I do not approve of.

Well the cut off for reasoning ability at the tiffins was the 97th percentile and for LEH it was the 95th so if reasoning ability is your measure of ability (irrespective of other intellectual and personal qualities such as creativity curiosity and motivation, which I would certainly regard as important in terms of potential ) then prima facie it is harder to get into Tiffin. However quite apart from the narrowness of the testing one of the measures of good reasoning tests is that they are iteratively developed to ensure they are not predictable, businesses and private schools pay quite a lot for that process. The tutoring industry around the Tiffin exams and the claims of tutors suggest that either all the tutors who claim to be able to train pupils to answer the questions because they are predictable are liars and the whole tutoring fervour is driven purely by parental angst or the tests are not working as a reliable indicator of ability because the schools simply cannot afford to invest in the tests for that number of applicants. I suspect it is a bit of all those factors. The results of students at private schools, and in the tops sets at outstanding comprehensives like Greycourt and Coombe certainly do provide evidence that Tiffin is creaming off the most able....though of course getting through the hoops to get your child to one of those schools in itself requires some nouse and motivation on the part of the parents which in turn is likely to be a predictor of academic performance.

Sorry "do NOT provide evidence thatTiffin is creaming off the most able. I have seen no evidence in the cohorts of my DDs peers that a child will be better able to achieve their potential at Tiffin than in the tops sets at one of the local outstanding comprehensives.

No. While grammar schools have a lot of applicants, privates have more and the international rich community to boot.

Private tests are harder - you're being tested against international educational standards, rather than UK primary school standards.

Your peers - ie those you have to beat - in both groups are on different planets too.

Read somewhere that there is a far number of applicants per place for the selective state secondary schools than for selective private schools, which makes sense in terms of economics, but can’t remember the source!

Far higher number

Lanaor you are wrong. On the whole, the selective state schools have far higher numbers of applicants. Even the most selective independent schools ie. St Paul's, Westminster and co eds like Alleyns attract circa 700 applicants for their 11+ places. QE boys had 2400 applicants this year and I'll wager the other Greater London super selectives weren't far off either. Many of the applicants will try for both sectors.

Also Lanaor, in my, admittedly limited, experience those who attend the super selectives and who also try for the independents will be offered a place at the independent (usually with scholarships).

However, I noticed that even if you don't get a high enough pass for the super selective tests (or in fact a 'normal' grammar), you can still be offered a top independent school. The schools obviously test different things and the independent school can afford to support a less academic child achieve the same grades as the super selective child in the end. Look on the eleven plus forum for lots of research/examples around this.

Of course more pupils will sit for free state school places than for Indys at 11+ because they are already in the state sector and wish to stay there. Very few parents have a spare £25k for each DC to send them to private school although MN sometimes gives the impression that everyone can afford school fees if they make a few sacrifices!

I think the point about supporting less able DCs is plausible for GCSEs but not for A levels. So much work has to be done independently that it just wouldn't be possible. QE's like Reading has excellent A level results and so is obviously picking up the brightest but it just offers further proof that Tiffin boys school doesn't. Whatwouldrondo has made some very good points. It will be interesting to see if Tiffin's A level results and the number of Oxbridge places they get, which again is very low compared to the Indys, improve once pupils who sat the new entrance exam come through the school.

DD sat for Tiffin and SPGS. She got into both. FWIW, she thought the SPGS exam was a lot harder, particularly the maths which had all kinds of stuff she had never covered even slightly.

The most selective private schools set Maths exam questions that are as much tests of lateral thinking as learned knowledge, and they are not bound by needing to set questions that have entirely objective mark schemes —to avoid being challenged in court by litigious parents— They can mark on the manifestation of different elements of ability and the approach taken to get to the answer as well as getting the answer. My DD was not to taught how to answer a question that was in the SPGS science comprehension until AS level, they obviously are not expecting candidates to have that level of knowledge in all the sciences but they do want to see how they approach the problem. Trying to compare the exams and what it takes to be successful is comparing chalk and cheese.

I think the numbers comparison is impossible. Especially in South West London where the proportion of pupils going to selective private schools is nearer 30% than the national average of 7%, and many of those parents are first time buyers who feel that they have to go private /apply to Tiffin because they are unlikely to get a place in one of the outstanding state comprehensives (who will themselves have over 1000 parents making them first preference). KGS gets over 1000 applicants but those applicants will each have applied to other private schools as well as possibly Tiffin. Some of those parents will not apply to Tiffin because once you have come to terms with the expense (possibly in my experience fairly commonly involving SAHP going back to work /sacrificed holidays /downsizing homes) set foot in a private schools a tour of Tiffin can leave you feeling distinctly underwhelmed by the facilities and lack of the all round holistic nurturing of talent and personal qualities that private schools promise (not convinced they all always deliver), and of course some will only apply to Tiffin for economic reasons (but also have the option of sitting in a pew to get to the state faith schools). A you can say is that the pressure on places at all the good schools, state or private is intense.

The truth is that they are both super hard to get a place.

The very top end London private schools (attracting very wealthy and very intelligent children from all over the world) and so it is fierce and the grammars you are fighting for a place with the whole area. Neither are easy. You get booted out of both unless you can keep up at a level.

rocketgirl Not strictly true, a lot of private schools make a point of standing by a pupil and supporting them through difficulties once they are there, and as long as they want to be there. That is actually more true of the most selective private schools who have an established academic reputation, or those that make pastoral care one of their marketing USPs. I have actually known some of the more selective schools have significant blips with particular cohorts, and even lose a fair number of pupils after GCSEs, precisely because they had stood by some difficult pupils with personal difficulties. When GCSE marking became inconsistent most private schools took a pragmatic approach to pupils who had done unexpectedly badly whereas a lot of state school pupils lost out on sixth form places. Of course those desperate to climb up the league tables can be as ruthless in the process as Grammar Schools.

Rocket girl. Evidence? Yes some might be asked to leave private schools if they don’t get suggested grades at GCSE, but in my experience it is rare and not without plenty of warning. From observation selective State schools are less gentle.

It will be interesting to see if Tiffin's A level results and the number of Oxbridge places they get, which again is very low compared to the Indys, improve once pupils who sat the new entrance exam come through the school.

Surely one would have to know the numbers of applicants to Oxbridge from Tiffin v Indys to begin with.

"Surely one would have to know the numbers of applicants to Oxbridge from Tiffin v Indys to begin with."

No, why? It is a standard measure used to compare top perforimg schools. Although allowance may have to be made nowadays for the increasing numbers applying to the top USA Unis which is very much the thing to do for those with bottomless pockets.

Tiffin - sixth form 20 to Oxbridge a year roughly, not sure how many out of

NLCS (private) - 45 to Oxbridge in 2017

Rocketgirl22 you are quite correct in relation to private schools. I know of DC being asked to leave before 11+ or being advised not to bother going for the senior school exam. I know of DC being asked to leave in yr9 before GCSE as they were not achieving what was expected. That was not in a top tier private either. So sadly it does happen. Also some private schools will have a point system to continue at the school doing A levels. If you don't receive the points its BTEC or out. These are in London so may be different elsewhere.

Within striking distance of me there are 2 'top' mixed independents. One of these has been flying high in the league tables for donkeys years , the other has rapidly appeared on its coat tails. There are many other options in the independent sector , grammars and rapidly improving comps.
Weeding out at sixth form or greatly reducing DC's options couched as being in DC's interests is widespread in order to secure league table positions.

Op referred to Westminster and City. I was not aware of much weeding out at Westminster. One or two before sixth form at most and probably linked to more than academics.

I did meet other parents who admitted their DC had not got places at Tiifin. Westminster’s Oxbridge rate was close on 50% despite 20-25 opting for top US Universities. (The latter were generally seen as more selective than Oxbridge.).

My view is that Tif,fin is more competitive but private schools are better at selecting.

I also am not aware of any weeding out at the top independents, without there being long conversations beforehand about what was best for the pupil. Ibstock certainly took a few casualties on it's drive up the tables and went for being known for its pastoral care to making it clear to parents that it was not interested in supporting pupils with learning difficulties (which make up around 10% of pupils in the top independents - all bar Eton anyway - which is as it should be since that is the incidence at every level of ability)

Whatwould how do you know Eton is the only top independent school which doesn't have 10% of pupils with learning difficulties and how do you know the others do take 10%?

The very academic private schools tend to be fairly good at selection so not many find the school is not for them later,sometimes they do. My sons had a St Paul's and a Habs boy in their private school sixth form. Both clever boys and both had decided not to do any work for various reasons which sometimes happens, not the school's fault and those boys chose to leave for a fresh start in lower sixth and have done fine. i don't remember children being weeded out at my girls' schools., It was more than someone's parent got a job abroad so they left or occasionally there were problems financially.

MrsP - thanks for putting us all right - good to have those numbers.

Dapple, I would not know the exact percentage, but Westminster has a reputation for being willing to take 'quirky' children. 10% sounds about right, maybe more. One of my DC is dyslexic and the support was great.