Why is there a big regional variation in the performance of independent schools?

[ChocolateWombat]

Looking at The Times' Parent Power results tables of Independnt schools, I notice a huge disparity of results by region.

The tables list the top 150 schools nationally by A Level (or equivalent) and GCSE in terms of A_B at A Level and A/A at A level. There are then regional tables too.

Of the top 150 nationally, 40 of the top 50 are in London or the South East. When you look at the regional tables which tend to show perhaps the top 20 or 30 schools, in London or the South East, you need to be in the top 50 to 0 schools to appear, but in other regions, there are often only 1 or 2 schools that are in the national too 100 and to find the top 20 or so schools, the tables have had to go down to ranks of well over 300 to get enough schools. When you look at the results of these schools, (and of all the schools in some regions) they are miles lower than the best schools - often poorer than very many state schools. (And I know being private doesn't make schools good - but these are the best if the regions)

So...my question is, why this massive and noticeable disparity? I understand there are more independent schools a more people willing to pay fees in London and the South East, but what is happening in the regional independents? The big names surely have plenty of funding and can attract good teachers and have good resources. The popular ones have plenty of applicants....so why the significantly lower results - it's the extent of the disparity that shocked me and I'd be interested to understand.

I've always known that lots of Independnet schools aren't that good - that being private in itself doesn't make schools good, but it also makes me wonder why some people are paying for schools that deliver these results - and before anyone jumps on this question, I know not all children are academically top notch, and I know people pay for far more than results.....but when the results really don't look that impressive in lots of a regions best schools, I do wonder. Is it just that the state schools are doing much worse? And if this is the case in both state and Independnet schools in an area, why?

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious.

Many thanks.

Crunch the numbers... London has 13% of the total UK population, Birmingham has 1%
No
Birmingham's population is just over 1m for the city and over 3m for the conurbation - UK = 60m

London population = 10m

It's not just big cities, it's big university cities, isn't it? Places like Manchester have good universities and so graduates might return to live there. Higher levels of education means both higher earning capacity and a tendency to value academic achievement.

If you look at that Times list of top performing independent schools the ones that sneak into the top 20 are Brighton, Oxford, Cambridge, Birmingham, Manchester... Which looks like a high achievers' UCAS form. Or UCCA if you're old like me.

My city has two Universities (one good, one "less so")
but as the local Comp schools are good, only one selective private school that loses lots of its 6th form to the State sector

UCCA and PCAS for me too, Lotsofsighing! And yes I think you’re right about large university based cities. In the same way as they’re the universities likely to have medical schools when some other sought after non city based universities don’t.

TalkinPeece, I don’t think good/excellent state schools necessarily negate the demand for independent schools especially in affluent, urban areas. I live at the very tip of Stockport and can walk into Cheshire in literally less than 1 minute. State schools around here tend to vary from good to outstanding. I think my 6 closest primary schools including DC’s school are all graded outstanding. My catchment secondary is not but the next 3 closest are all graded outstanding. Yet use of the private sector here is rife.

Private education is selective by default - selecting by ability to pay. And London enables true competition between private schools as the transport options are so good.

Yes but selection by ability to pay does not equate to phenomenally high results.

The extremely highly selective schools, most of which are in London, but some like my DD’s new school which are situated elsewhere, are able to produce the results they do not because they are somehow magic but rather because they are super selective by intake.

something not mentioned yet is that some independents "manage out" poor performing students.
even in the last of the exam years, as one poster on here noticed, her dd at an exclusive London school is being made to sit her GCSE's independently at another discrete location.

Is there a way to access this list without paying The Times subscription fees? Or any other list similar?

We want to send DD to private school but I have no idea how the ones in our area compare overall. There are no good state options at all. There's a decent free grammar that's on the list but that's about it. I'd like to know how places such as Wakefield Girls stack up nationally though as that's probably the top option at the moment.

(DD isn't even born yet so we've got a LONG time but we need to save or pray the state schools improve!)

Would the schools elsewhere put people off moving away from the south east?

For us this certainly was the deciding factor in not moving to Norfolk, despite loving the county. The state schools there are generally producing drastically poorer results than the schools where we live closer to London. Why put our DC at an immediate disadvantage when we have very good state and independent schools where we are?

Lifechanges I don’t know about access but you need to remember 2 things. Firstly many independent schools don’t put their results in to league tables, partly because just like any other schools, you have high achieving years and lower ones because of your pupil cohort. The schools which ALWAYS put them in though are the ones that cherry pick their intake year after year to ensure that they’re near the top (or they just feel they ought to be there/always have entered) Their results may be down to some good teaching too but it’s mostly down to a stonkingly good intake of very clever, hardworking kids. The value added may be minimal, which leads to my second point. If you have a child who is not right at the top, they may flounder in that school as they’ll be the one who always struggles. The school also may not be set up as well with teachers who can alter their teaching style to suit a less ‘perfect’ learner. I’m not talking about special needs here, I’m talking about the difference between a pupil who would achieve 9s (high As) across the board day in day out, versus a mixture of 8/9s (As and As) Visit the schools you’re thinking of and picture your child there; it’s time consuming but it works. Look at the league tables by all means, but don’t imagine that all results are due to a ‘fabulous school’.

Forgot to say. The reason why the regional schools don’t super select like the London schools is that they can’t; they don’t have enough pupils applying for each place. They may not even be full (shock, horror) Independent schools are horrifically expensive to run as much of their cost is tied up in staffing.....add in the minimum wage (and associates concertina raises for those just above it), pensions and NI and schools have been squeezed harder and harder. Being picky is not an option for many.

Associated

I think another factor is who actually lives in northern cities? Where were they educated? I know Sheffield fairly well. Hardly any independent schools. Sheffield people seem to prefer state and there’s clearly low demand for Private. I think Sheffield university attracts a fairly low percentage of privately educated students. It’s a strong Labour voting city. It’s the same situation in other northern cities. It maybe that parents don’t want to spend the money because they did ok out of the state system and wish to support it. It may also be the lack of high earners with disposable income. It may be that parents think their children will be ok wherever they go to school.

Parents who have been privately educated themselves, as have all their friends, see Private as a way of life if they can afford it. It’s not just about the education, it’s about who your friends are and how you fit into your friendship group and “tribe”. In London and the SE, the larger number of well off people who identify with the private school “tribe” is huge.

Good results don’t appear to be spread equally around the country but state school results tell you that as well. Students going to university from some areas in the north and midlands are very low. We know some schools in these areas are very poor but there would be few private schools for the odd child who needs to escape. They wouldn’t be financially viable!

BubblesBuddy, I think it depends on the size of the city and crucially, the industries in the cities. I think Manchester is different from Sheffield because work wise, there’s the huge amount of hospitals/med school at the university, the ‘big 4’ accountancy firms also have a presence (Acc, PWC, D&T) Then there’s a sizeable banking sector in the city. A lot of people we know here in South Manchester are Southerners who came here for university and found professional graduate work in the city afterwards. We fall into this category. Add to all this the ridiculous wealth in NE Cheshire and it creates a large demand for private school places. Edinburgh was the same.

Woah!

I fiddled around with post codes in TfL's journey planner to get a long list of private schools from which to choose a short list for s dyslexic DD, using a cap of 40 minutes journey time. If I had added everything I would have ended up with well over 30. If you look at destination schools for preps like Hill House and or Newton Prep you will see tremendous variety. The list could have had included 10 or so in the UKs top 50 but equally plenty that fly under the radar and are far less selective. Indeed one, famously preferred by celebs, which appeared on Bristol University's list of schools receiving contextual offers because of their relatively poor results. There is a school for every child.

I do think there is some difference in why people choose to pay. A friend who is an academic, sent her kids to the comprehensive favoured by other academics. Private school would have only become a consideration had they been less able and in danger of getting "lost in the middle". In which case the well regarded local private school, with lots of sport and other EC, might have been the place to help them find confidence from being good at other things.

Forgot to say friend was in Durham. If we had lived in Durham we would have probably done the same. Instead our (London) choice was a catchment school with 93% on FSM, and indeed no state offer at all for DS. Remaining choices were pay, get religion, tutor heavily for grammar or rent in another catchment. Nothing about tribes.

We live East Yorkshire, Next to Hull, which was always in bottom 5 for school achievement. On ISC website, school finder, there are no private within 3/5 miles and 3 in ten miles, one is a specialist SEN/PRU, one a prep and one secondary. 15 miles adds 3 more, two in Lincolnshire (need a boat), and 30 miles adds a boarding/day school. 50 miles away equals 28 schools.
That bares out, our personnel experience, where less than 1 or 2 leave primary for prep and out of the 38 in year 6, with our DC, none went private.
Only people we know in private, are families who have always used them, think lawyers, solicitors and large estate owners or people who have 1 child or have earned their own wealth and decide private education is better.
Schools do get high exam results for area, ie over 90% at A to C, but not London, 90% at A/A grades. Also two local secondary's are small, with around 900 to 1000 pupils in each.
We know farmers, business owners, doctors, financial services workers, senior operating managers all using local state schools and we have no grammars either. Though average salary around here is £25000- 26000/ annum and privates charge £10000 and £11000, so their is not large numbers fighting their doors down.
Local users say that no child ever fails entrance exam, if that's true, why have it.