Medicine 2019 entry

[ocean2]

Hello,
My DS is doing the subjects that he is good at and is interested in for A/Ls and is in year 12, which are Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Economics. He decided to do medicine after attending a Medical seminar at a hospital and also after going to a few careers evening in his schools, such as engineering etc. He has also done some research into it. He was someone who did not know what he wanted to do in the future. However, now that he has decided he has arranged work experience at a hospital through one of his friends. He has been volunteering at a Primary school once every week during school hours from last year for work experience as well as he likes teaching children.
DS does not know his predicted results, but from his formative exams, he is predicted A, A and 2Bs which he says that he can get it to As or A prediction in the mock exams. He is hoping to sit the BMAT and UKCAT this year. Sitting the BMAT can be omitted if BMAT universities prefer higher grades as his GCSE results are 4A*, 4As and 4Bs. I would like some of your thoughts and advice on this, please.

tell him to run for the hills. (GP here)

seriously? he needs to read up on what life as a junior doctor islike and think very clearly about whether it is really for him. 50% of juniors are leaving the NHS or medicine after their first two years as a doctor

Thank you. I will ask DS to research more. Hopefully, the work experience he has arranged helps him to find out more about the job.

Ocean2 you might find it helpful to take a look through the Medicine 2018 Threads 1-3. We have been through the process together since the summer.

GCSEs are good enough but take a look at the specific requirements for each Uni in particular relating to the subjects your DC has B's in. It's all about strategic application. Difficult to choose without UKCAT score so enter for that & start studying & practising after AS - about a month/ 6 week's prob sufficient.

He only needs 3 A Levels, all at A minimum so better to study hard for 3 than sit 4. Chemistry is compulsory & most want Biology. The third could be either Maths or Economics. Most don't seem to mind.

Work experience & volunteering is essential so sounds like he's on the right path. The school volunteering in particular will be good.

My DC didn't do BMAT as UKCAT was good enough to apply sensibly & didn't like those Uni's as much but it's others on the thread did.

Yes please do come and read the Medicine 2018 thread as lots of useful info (waves at Somerset). Lots more than just work experience - to be honest mind had 3days at a hospital and week at GP. And volunteered at a horse riding place for 7 years (so was first aider). Go to open days - can not stress this enough as admissions tutors are great at telling it straight. For example Notts said they liked part time jobs and I think this led to my DDs offer. But you need to ace the UKCAT (vile thing), decide whether to do BMAT, and then apply strategically. No point applying to Cardiff if less than 8*s, no point applying to Sheffield without a decent UKCAT. I suggest, from DDs experience, to look at type of learning first (they teach it v differently !), narrow selection by looking at selection (NOT entry) criteria, and then visit about 6. Somerset and I have kids who have succeeded this year so lots of recent knowledge of want help.
And I know it's a tough job (we watched Hospital this week and knowing that's where my DD might be next year was scary) but let's be thankful people still want to do it.

PS sorry for typos. Been a v long term 🤪

Waves back.

Thank you SomersetS and mumsneedwine. The information is very useful.

With his GCSEs I'd say definitely look at Sheffield, Southampton and Liverpool (they score A & A* the same) for starters. First 2 as long as have 7 As then it's all on UKCAT score (normally around high 2690 for both - Sheffield publish there's). Nottingham bit of everything so worth a look too. UEA too worth a look. All have early patient contact which might not be what he wants - some courses don't see a patient for first few years, some see them first week. Good luck

Definitely agree with the advice re only 3 A levels, if he does four they will expect 4As minimum, if he does 3 then 3 As is likley to be the minimum offer. No advantage to 4, lots of downsides in terms of extra work and stress.

"if he does four they will expect 4As minimum"

This is just not true. Med schools normally publish their standard offers. Perhps PP could explain the basis for her assertion.

FWIW DD took five. Her offer was 3As, to include chemistry and another lab subject. Useful as she dropped a grade (by a single UMS) in one of her sciences. Her broader knowledge, especially the maths, but to some extent her physics, has come in useful, and she has perhaps found the step up to University, at least in terms of work volume, easier. It may also help give her a better spread of intercalation options. The obvious proviso is that you don't take additional subjects unless you have the head room and will not to struggle to get the grades.

And following on Somerset and Mumsneedwine, if you are taking 4 QMUL and Birmingham traditionally have liked applicants who have 4 A levels, though you would need to check.

Ask him to listen to the audiobook: This Is Going To Hurt (Secret diaries of a junior doctor) - by Adam Kay.

It is brilliant, so insightful and really gives the listener an understanding of just how insanely difficult the job is.

18 is so young to make such a huge life choice, especially if done on a whim.

Needmoresleep, based on teaching in a large sixth form with lots of my students currently ( and every year) in the med school application. So this year approx 20 medicine applicants that i personally teach. Have seen the same pattern in offers in previous years.
Published standard offers are nearly always open to alteration, in either direction.

Similarly DD was at a sixth form where 4 As were standard, and 5 were not unknown. Each year there would be 20 or so medical applicants. Oxbridge and Imperial seemed the only ones who seemed to vary offers, based on the number of A levels predicted. And even then it seemed based on the type of school as much as anything.

Both DD's offers were as published.

It would seem odd for medical schools to discourage potential students from gaining a broader education if they have the capability. All sorts of skills come into play, whether academic (humanities, maths, physics, etc) or other (drama, leadership, resiliance). QMUL, say, does expect AAAC for those offering 4 A levels but selection is based on UCAS tariff so taking four gives you an advantage earlier in the process. Ditto Birmingham will offer on four, but no longer requires the A* that forms part of their standard offer.

Your blanket statement is wrong. A few exceptins do not make a rule. Medical schools seem to work hard to ensure their selection criteria are transparent. I would suggest instead that people read Medical School websites and if need be, contact the admissions office for clarification.

Surely even in large schools, assuming the school offers four A levels, it makes sense to start with the pupil. For some, subjects like maths and chemistry will pretty intuitive, whilst others will find the standard 3 A offer a challenge. Having the extra knowledge, and the experience of balancing a fairly heavy workload is an advantage for first year students. The maths then keeps the door open for an engineering intercalation, some of which can be quite competitive. A humanity might do similar for other options.

I would add that though DD did not take BMAT, those that did seemed to think having physics and maths, as well as bio and chem, helped. Oxbridge/Imperial appears to rely heavily on BMAT scores in their selection process. Again perhaps the QMUL approach. 4 A levels helps in getting the offer, but then Universities then expect you to deliver them. With medicine the tricky bit can be getting the offer.

They all differ. DD ended up at Bristol where weight was given to a strong PS including extra-curricular and volunteering. Other medical schools won't even read the PS. Edinburgh does not interview. As PPs have said. Do the research and find the right fit.

Need, I am not talking about a few exceptions making a rule. You are looking at second hand information based on one child and and one year group. I can assure you that year on year we see med schools ( and indeed other courses ) alter their offer based on whether a kid does 3 or 4 A levels. The other thing anyone has to balance is that 4 is a lot more work and stress, for no advantage. We have had plenty of kids to eg Cambridge for med over the years on 3 ( they mostly got 3 A*s but that was not their offer)
FWIW i also have a dc at Bristol doing med, and i found their incalating not at all competitive. Whilst dc now as they get towards the end of their course easily in the top ten, at the time of intercalating they were only in the top 40%, they came home and discussed it with us and I pointed out that that when their dad had incalated he had been in the top 10 students, but of course these days with the students paying the unis are happy for lots of them to add an extra year. I actually do not know of any med students in the past approx 8 years or so, either personally or those that keep in touch once they leave school, that has not been offered the opportunity to add in a BSc whilst passing.

Rosie going back over the past ten cohorts with a fair number going to Oxford and Cambridge and with four A2s as standard at our school since 2012 I would agree with Needmoresleep. My own DS and a close friend of his who both went to Oxford in 2012 and who both did more than four A2s got the standard offer from each and every one of their choices, although I'm not basing what I say purely on them. It's just what happens each year. Your school is evidently different but I don't think you can generalize given that other schools clearly have consistently different experience.

I can't fathom what you're saying in the last para of your last post .... Perhaps it's me - perfectly likely - but it seems very convoluted.

All the Admissions tutors at open days said they only counted 3 A levels so no point in taking more as they wouldn't look at them. New A levels are not like the old ones as they are much harder (hence 45% to get an A in biology last year).

Mumsneedwine, there is no disagreement with the fact that most admissions officers will not look at more than three. Very few (QMUL and Birmingham being rare exceptions) mention different offers based on four.

I disagree, however with a view that there is "no point" in taking more than three. Perhaps in a narrow admissions context, and certainly if the applicant will find achieving the grades on three enough of a stretch. But for a pupil at a school where four is standard, and who is comfortable, why not take four.

1. broader learning rarely goes to waste.
2. it helps develop time management skills
3. it may allow for a broader range of intercalation options.

On the latter I dont understand Rosie's post. It is not something that DD has looked at closely but it is a door she wants to keep open. A quick look at Imperial's website talks about how they SELECT external intercalation applicants. You need a maths A level for bioengineering, as well as good grades on your course, PS and reference. DD reports that other intercalation options both at her own University and elsewhere are competitive, so intercalation is by no means a given. There may be intercalation options that are not particularly selective, certainly not all. And I think, at least in some places, you are only allowed to apply if you are on track for a 2.1.

(I did not read intercalation as Universities wanting more money, but instead as an acknowledgement that those on 5 year degrees don't have as much chance to pursue partiicular medicine related academic interests as those on the traditional 6 year courses. But stand to be corrected.)

DD is studying alongside peers who took new A levels. I dont think she has noticed them having obviously covered more ground in their A level subjects, whilst Medical schools are still offering on As, with the occassional A*.

Birmingham will offer AAAA instead of AAA. But that is not an easier option in my view. Particularly if you do maths where the number getting an A is triple that of the sciences. Otherwise AAA is going to be absolutely fine for most places.
The new A levels mean that the requirement for a 4th subject has gone everywhere. The only one that mentioned it this year was Manchester who asked for an AS in something. That will probably die very shortly.
If you are focussed on Oxbridge you need to face up to it primarily being a science course and take the consequences.....

I work at a MedSchool. Chatting with our admiss. officer last week, she said our school would look at the 3 best qualifying A-levels for an application (so 4 A-level results = AAAC would be treated as AAA).

All this info about 'strategic' applying; I know people make spreadsheets about the different requirements. Presumably by looking at admiss. criteria. Do people ever share their spreadsheets? Seems like lots of repetitive effort that could be avoided if people share the info they collected.

Intercalc'n year: do students pay for this? I thought they got tuition loans for 3 yrs & any years after the basic 3 were paid for by the NHS.

I'll dig out my DDs spreadsheet when get a chance. It's quite comprehensive for UKCAT Unis - she didn't look at BMAT.

I would love to have a copy if your DD doesn't mind sharing. pm me? Even if it's just a starting point. I can offer to update for 2020 entry for DD overly involved who me?

I too have a massive spreadsheet that DD & I put together. It could do with a tidy up & some update now with hindsight but will do that & share.
Medic Portal publish quite a lot of data on each Uni too.

MedSchoolRat, a first year poster Med School who was a regular on The Student Room, put together a table which can be found on her Blog

natalierm2707futuredoctorblogs.wordpress.com/category/applying/

Its getting a bit out of date but it was a great starting point for DD.

Once you have medical school names in alphbetical order it is reasonably easy to paste in columns with other information. Things like teaching style, I also found something giving failure rates, and some random other stuff. In practice once we had filtered out the ones where DD would not qualify, and the places that did not appeal to her, there were only three left. So decision made.

Another GP here - tell him to think very hard about it, there are far better careers out there. Having 50+ patients a day telling you their woes, and who all think their issues are unique and intersting, really takes its toll. Add to this a general assumption now that the patient/somebody's granny/the daily mail knows better than any doctor what the problem is and I wouldn't recommend it.

Seems like it has lots of kudos as a teenager - it really doesn't.