Is it possible to find out how successful local primary schools are at 11+?

[SummerSun1234]

We live in an area where you can take the 11+ And go to a grammar school if u r successful. Is there any way to find out how successful the local primaries are at getting kids through the 11+? I'd like my child to go to a school where if he chooses this route he will get the support he needs at school. So I'm looking for some stats on where the successful kids were schooled.

Apologies for the very odd bold fails there!

Grammar school area here. No "official" preparation here other than the fact that the entrance exams are more geared towards the curriculum (moving away slightly from NVR etc to more high level maths / comprehension / vocabulary) so the whole year group gets pushed where appropriate. Other local schools have put on breakfast clubs for 11+ prep (so not officially school time) and homework is often inclusive of 11+ areas.

Every school I visited could give their stats for pass rates (an overall %) but agree in areas like this, a lot of it is down to pushy parents like me and tutors. Parents evening at the start of Yr 5 identify whether the teacher believes GS to be a good fit for the child (exams at start of yr 6) so its definitely a collaborative approach between school and home.

I forgot to add OP:

7. What reprimands/punishments may be imposed upon KCC teachers/headteachers if any such restrictions are broken? We follow up any allegation that inappropriate preparation is taking place in a school, and will remind schools that they are allowed to administer the tests provided they abide by our instructions. In particular, if we receive firm evidence that schools have retained test materials which they are required to return to us after testing and are making use of them to coach pupils, we reserve the right to disregard the test scores for pupils from that school, using an alternative method of assessment, and not to allow the school to administer tests on their premises in future.

You can look at the SATs results and OFSTED which might be an indication of the quality of teaching. Those are two other big cans of worms though. It is also hard to judge how your son will do based on children in a cohort 6 or 7 years ahead. Some classes are more disruptive, a head teacher may leave and a new regime sweep in, a teacher may go on long term sick and be replaced with a series of supply teachers, teachers come and go and some are better than others - between them my three children have 18 years of primary school education, 23 teachers and only twice have they had the same teacher as one of their siblings. These are in fairly small cohorts (one/two form entry). I think that the best indicators of eleven plus success (other than hopefully intelligence) are parental wealth, pushiness and investment and child willingness to work, no SEN and wanting to go to a grammar school. A good stable school will make that task easier (particularly a solid grasp of maths and English) but as long as you find that the rest is up to you and your child.

It isn't the job of primary schools to be for or against the 11+ and grammar schools, it is their job to teach the national curriculum. I think people mistake an absence from the process in preparing for the 11+ as an ideological objection. They may or may not have, but either way, their opinion is irrelevant.

And from a school /LA / government/ schools admission protocol, the premise of the 11+ is that it is a test that can identify intelligence and aptitude irrespective of prior education. So how could a state school be given the job of 'tutoring' . (Space for much hollow laughter)

Many teachers are not supporters of Grammars, per se. For all the reasons people generally are not, and presumably they see first hand how many children develop different areas of education at different times, have a loyalty and commitment to all their pupils and don't see the benefit of a sheep v goat divide on one test on one day.

They are teaching kids who, for example, will go into comprehensive schools with very high SATS in Maths and average in English, and those skills will be built in in appropriate sets in Secondary.

Other teachers will be pro-grammar, of course. And they will see Grammar-material kids who are not being tutored in NVR and VR from yr 3 or 4, or at all, and they may see the pushy tutoring parents as the problem as much as the others!

OP: my kids went to a primary where they were happy, enjoyed learning and were well taught. They then went to Comps as high achievers and got / are getting top academic results.

It isn't all about the Grammars.

Not round here - 11+ is a dirty word at state Primaries!!!

I'm in Essex. Support varies. Of the primary schools I know:

1. Has not mentioned the 11plus at all, in spite of child that I know, currently year 5, being extremely able. One child got in to grammar last year, I think two the year before. The school itself however is in my opinion a very good, child centred, school.
2. A very academic school with a good opinion of itself. I have heard that it holds a meeting for parents where details are given of tutors for the 11 plus. I believe five or six passed last year, but I don't think any passed the year before, although I may be wrong.
3. A village school. They have "11 plus club" after school where kids get support. I don't know if it's paid for, I don't think so.
4. Another village school. They also have 11 plus club for selected children, this is paid for by parents. I think around four passed last year.

How you would find this out in advance I don't know, though.

Some really informative posts on here. State schools as mentioned do not cover 11+.

It's a state school, for all children. Not just for those taking the 11+, so even in a full grammar area where I live, teachers can't spend lesson time going over something that only applies to some children.

That list Clavinova linked is v interesting. Time and again you will see the "schools" getting a high proportion through the 11+ are just the schools in affluent areas with pushy parents - it's nothing to do with the school.

I'm really confused by the replies? All my local primarys have an 11+ club.

Our state junior school preps for the 11 plus. The year 5s are split into two streams and the top stream get the 11 plus support. Practice papers completed once a week during the spring and summer term and an 11 plus summer school in the holidays. About half of the year group will pass and go on to a grammar school including some children from the second stream. Almost all kids have extra tutoring too.

Not sure if they publish the results anywhere though.

I'm really confused by the replies? All my local primarys have an 11+ club.

Which is permitted (just!) if it is out of hours as a club therefore doesn't eat in to the National curriculum teaching. Even then I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with it.

The two local primaries that I have experience with both did before or after school 11+ prep. Any DC could choose to go. A lot had tutors once a week in Y5 though.

In DD's year both schools had around 50% going to one Grammar or another.

"The year 5s are split into two streams and the top stream get the 11 plus support. Practice papers completed once a week during the spring and summer term and an 11 plus summer school in the holidays. About half of the year group will pass and go on to a grammar school including some children from the second stream"

OMG: so the selection starts before the 11+ selection! And the fact that some of the second stream get grammar places without the 11+ support shows how dodgy the selection is. How many more second streamers would get a grammar place if they had had support?

I am shocked this is allowed in a state primary.

In Bucks the primaries teach the national curriculum but not the 11 plus. Many children are coached and basically the higher success rates in the primary schools depends how leafy lane they are. It has virtually nothing to do with good teaching in the schools. Plenty of children here used to have level 5 in all Sats but not get near a grammar school.

All children in Bucks are entered for the test and you withdraw your child if you are not interested. There is no help or support in any school and of course Ofsted don't judge schools on 11 plus success.

The best advice is go leafy lane where you get 11 plus type children in the neighbourhood and keen parents in larger numbers. You will then get to know tutors and be in the loop of what is required by talking to other parents. The school will be supportive of learning in school.

Either though they aren't allowed to "prepare", some primaries have good relationships with their local grammar(s) to encourage social mobility. A number of our local primaries are part of a system where they send a small group of pupils one afternoon a week for, I think, six weeks, to the grammar, where a couple of the grammar teachers do "taster" and "introductory" sessions to the grammar, in the hope of inspiring them to want to go to there.

Wow! I'm glad I asked about this as I really had no idea. I actually took the 11+ as a child. I had no tutoring at all and I passed and really enjoyed my grammar school. I literally had no idea that some kids are tutored so much. Right the new plan is to look for a primary that brings on both a child that struggles but would also challenge an intelligent child and where we think DC will be happy. We'll worry about whether the grammar is appropriate in year 5. The local comp here has a lot of issues, hence the interest in the grammar, but let's hope they resolve those in the next few years. Thanks for all your answers this has been an eye opener!

There are different grammars. When it comes to the super selective ones, I think it's pretty much impossible to get in without a lot of prep. You'll often have 20+ children competing for a space so the ones that make it are clever, have been well-prepped and coped well with exam stress and time management.

Yes your child needs to be well prepped to get into super selective but that doesn't mean they have to be heavily tutored. DD got in with no outside tutoring, just some practice at home with us during year 5 - as did at least two others in her class. And if your child isn't the type to be willing to sit down at home occasionally and do some maths questions then grammar probably isn't the right place for them anyway!

AliMonkey that was my thoughts exactly. Some of the kids did struggle at the grammar school, they may be the ones that were heavily tutored to get in. I would look at other options in those circumstances.