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Original poster

Oxbridge Entry and Equality

59 replies

KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 19:18

I keep hearing from Oxford and Cambridge that they are aiming to increase the numbers of admissions from state schools.

Then;
A friend with a son at a highly regarded private school in South London tells me that her son has been invited to an introductory taster day at Cambridge. In discussion it transpires that they have invited a cohort from that school as they are under target for admissions from that borough. So they go to a ^private* school in that borough? Where probably most of the kids at the school live in other boroughs! And surely the only reason for borough based targets (this is a deprived area) is to monitor state school intake?

Another friend, at another private school tells me that a Cambridge Admissions tutor (one quoted in an article about getting state students into Cambridge) has been to her son's school and given them lots of tips as to how to get in: how to pick a college and subject, make a good application. Do private schools pay Cambridge for this (and thus enable Cambridge to pimp themselves out for money to wealthy private schools) or do Cambridge take it upon themselves to tour independent and public schools? It would have taken a whole day to get there and back).

Then I gather from the recent cheating debacle that Cambridge runs a niche set of exams as an alternative to A Levels, largely (maybe solely) used by private schools, and is the only exam board where practicing teachers, in these schools, are allowed to be the ones who set the questions.

Other students gain access to Oxbridge to do Classics / Greek / Latin, surely largely from a private school intake because it is an uncommon subject in state schools. Having got in to do that subject, they then swap courses to study subjects that they may not have got in to do had they applied for that in tne first place. So their private school curriculum leap frogs them in.

It is hard not to think that pleas that they want to attract state school students is not hypocritical.

I am watching incredibly bright kids (not mine Grin ) in our school ace their GCSEs and A levels, and no one from Cambridge Admissions has been cosying up over sherry in the staff room at their school.

OP posts:
boys3 · 10/09/2017 19:30

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38842482

perhaps a bit of limited research rather than reliance on third party anecdote might have been an idea

titchy · 10/09/2017 19:40

Annoying when reality doesn't support anecdote isn't it...Hmm

FWIW Cambridge (and Bristol and UCL and Leicester and UWE and Portsmouth - in other words most universities) send people to HE fairs run by (careful OP this'll shock you) state schools and colleges all the bloody time.

As for Classics being the preserve of the privately educated, dc's 40%A*-C comp offered Latin. Clearly state schools do have a smaller range of subjects, but that's hardly Cambridges fault.

jeanne16 · 10/09/2017 19:44

Knitter. That really is utter nonsense. Introductory Taster days at Cambridge are open to everyone and cost £10 per day which should be affordable for most people.

All universities have Admissions tutors who will visit schools to give tips on writing personal statements. It just requires the school arranging this.

As for getting into Oxbridge for an 'easier course' and then swapping, that is rubbish too. It is extremely difficult to switch courses as they will be full.

You obviously have an agenda here and are looking for evidence to support it. The fact is all unis want the best students they can get, regardless of where they come from.

Crumbs1 · 10/09/2017 20:05

There is definitely disparity. My children's independent held a university fair in school which Oxford, Cambridge and all RG universities pitched up to and offered guidance and support. Admissions tutors visited to speak regularly.
A MAT serving children from challenging communities had appointed an Oxbridge Tsar for the 40 odd schools in the trust and they tried to set up a similar event. They didn't get any positive responses from any universities despite serving many, many more children.
Anyone can go to taster days and there are AIM Higher links.

allegretto · 10/09/2017 20:09

I really hope it is changing. 25 years ago I was desperate to get in and my comprehensive school gave me no help at all. When I went up for interview itcwas clear that the private school candidates had been coached for months, if not years!

boys3 · 10/09/2017 20:16

www.offa.org.uk/press-releases/access-agreements-2018-19/

bit more for you op

Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 21:47

Well, I am glad these things are happening.

Yes, I do have 'an agenda' , well done for spotting it!

The anecdotes I spoke of actually happened. So why did Cambridge go to a private school to attempt to gain more entries from that postcode?

I am pleased your comp offers Latin. Most do not seem to. In ours it was available as an option if a certain number of students signed up ( they didn't).

Good to know Open Days can be booked for £10 plus travel. I still don't think it is the same as an admissions tutor coming to give tips on how to get in. (They went on a summer school too, of course).

Anyway, I am delighted to know that it is a completely Level playing field and that the fact that the small minority of privately educated young people (is it 7%?) are gaining only just under half the places at top Unis.

Can I ask how many of you helpful people have children in private education?

OP posts:
titchy · 10/09/2017 22:06

Comprehensives teach the entire ability range. Three quarters+ of intake are not academically able enough for Cambridge. Or are you suggesting that set 4 should be given some Latin lessons to level the playing field?

Private schools have a far higher proportion of academically able pupils so obviously they're going to be able to send more kids to Cambridge.

Cambridge admissions boss DO visit and give advice to state schools.

Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 22:17

More private schools are selective, so I can see how they would do well in admissions for top Universities.

But actually there are many, many non selective private schools that take average students.

The vast majority of young people in this country, are in state schools. Amongst that 93% there are many very high achievers. I'm straight numbers there must be more high achievers in 93% of the population than 7%.

back

OP posts:
Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 22:27

62% of entrants sounds like a good news story for a fair and democratic country, but I actually do not know how anyone thinks that 38% of entrants from 7% of the population looks like the same good news.

Statistics and lies, and all that.

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Roseformeplease · 10/09/2017 22:30

Oxford were brilliant at helping DS. Oxford and Cambridge ran a day jointly for any state school kids in Scotland - very under-represented at both universities. He was not only at state school but is the first one ever to go to Oxbridge from his school.

They are trying.

DS was in a very mixed class (many who went to work in shops / trades etc) and had to do a lot himself. Including teaching himself Latin with limited online help. He got huge credit for that, for his 1p book purchases from Amazon and for doing all that while financing things with a part time job.

But, he also aced the entry exam, got to interview and did 2 good interviews, plus met their offer.

They are holding the door open much more than they used to - they really are trying.

PandaG · 10/09/2017 22:32

My Ds's state comp. school had Oxbridge admissions staff come and give tips at post y13 evening. My ds has been on 2 Cambridge taster days, and an open day. City wide university fair (for state and I assume private) had a number of Oxbridge staff.

Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 22:38

Good to hear, PandaG and RoseForMe. And well done to your DS: terrific effort to teach himself like that,

OP posts:
2014newme · 10/09/2017 22:39

All sixth forms do it!
Don't be ridiculous! Our local comp have trips to I bridge, visits from admissions etc

meditrina · 10/09/2017 22:41

"small minority of privately educated young people (is it 7%?) are gaining only just under half the places at top Unis."

7% is the number across all age groups. The percentage at pre-prep is way smaller. That at 6th form is about 21% (but that figure is from before the raising if the participation age)

That is, as you point out, largely an academically selected group. But I wouldn't know how toncrunch the numbers to see if it is the selection that makes the difference in numbers proceeding to academic tertiary education, or if it's something hookey.

What are the numbers for non-university tertiary education!(acting, art, music etc) or going straight to Sandhurst/Cranwell/Dartmouth?

Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 22:42

Out (outstanding) comp didn't, but I am glad many / most do.

How do the Oxbridge admissions folk work their way round so many schools? It can't be all, surely?

OP posts:
meditrina · 10/09/2017 22:44

"38% of entrants from 21%of the sixth formpopulation looks like the same good news."

Fixed that for you.

What %age of the sixth form population is grammar school? What %age to university?

(PS: if you're wondering about source of %ages by age/stage it's the DofEd)

2014newme · 10/09/2017 22:46

They invite students from lots of schools to one presentation. So our comprehensive has an oxbridge group who would attend that and then go to visit.
My niece is not oxbridge material but went on a taster day to Cambridge with school.

titchy · 10/09/2017 22:49

Ok let's do some maths...

Roughly 600,000 18 year olds in UK. 50,000 educated privately, accounting for the few truly teaching the full ability range let's say 10% of private kids are Oxbridge calibre - 5.000 kids. State educated: 550,000 of which maybe 2% Oxbridge calibre - 10,000 kids.

So we'd expect roughly two thirds of Oxbridge students to be state educated. And blow me down with a feather - roughly two thirds are indeed state educated!

Figures not exact as not at work, but in the right ball park.

pambeesley · 10/09/2017 22:52

Lots of support when I was at Comp in the 90s.

I think the main reason that holds some children back is confidence and aspiration.

I have worked in a middle of the road private school and the children there all aspired to go to top universities and have great careers and it was cool to study hard and get good grades.

This was so different to when I was as local school where it was cool to skive or mess about and this was a decent comp.

Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 23:08

PamBeesley: in comps now though, or at least the comps in tough London areas I am familiar with (including my kids') it IS now cool to be clever. The top sets have kudos.

Though I agree with you that confidence and different perception as to aspiration and what is possible are probably a strong factor.

Titch: not sure how you surmise that 10% of private students are Oxbridge material against 2% of state.

The sixth form at Dcs comp is very selective on GCSE results. Of the top and middle set kids who didn't make it, the poor ones went to 6th Form College, the wealthy to private sixth forms. A couple of Maths geniuses went to the Kings Maths School. The ones with A* / A in most subjects stayed.

OP posts:
Original poster
KnitterAndTwisted · 10/09/2017 23:12

Anyway, thank you for the things I have found out, I have to abandon the internet for a few weeks now.

OP posts:
LoniceraJaponica · 10/09/2017 23:18

DD went to an Oxbridge convention in Liverpool last year. She said that Cambridge came across as not wanting anyone to go there and were very negative that anyone from a state school in the north of England should dare to think about applying to them, but Oxford were very welcoming and positive.