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Yet more dumbed down pseduo science in our schools.

114 replies

DominiConnor · 01/04/2007 10:19

The government wants a new, "science" certificate that is absolutely impossible to fail.
Dumb

Given that both Tony and Cherie Blair are both comitted christians, perhaps this is the game plan ?
Evolution is bunk

The government has already put millions vinto schools with a policy of teaching that evolution is nonsense.

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WelshBoris · 01/04/2007 10:20

I blame the art grads DC

hunkermunker · 01/04/2007 10:27

I like the idea of teaching children about science in industry. I'd like children to learn philosophy of science too - fascinating stuff.

But not keen on fundamentalist Christianity and creationism being taught. The second link you posted is fucking terrifying, to put it mildly.

sfxmum · 01/04/2007 10:35

crosses self in horror we are all doomed!

think dd will be home ed!

grannyquackersleetlefuffychick · 01/04/2007 10:41

hmmn - not sure what to think about the proposed science certificate, but as for the other link -

just why are so many americans so religious? do the ones who reject evolution think scientists are making it all up? it really puzzles me.

colander · 01/04/2007 10:44

I was a science (biology) teacher before kids and will go back eventually. I have heard the changes to the syllabus are bad - dumbing down etc. - but haven't dared look myself yet! I can't believe that America sees itself as a forward-thinking country and then doesn't promote the theory of evolution and even allows some states to ban the teaching of it completely. I also hate the way the UK seems to be becoming more and more like this. How can people put blind faith before accepted scientific research and findings? With fossil evidence!!! Now I've got all worked up....

hunkermunker · 01/04/2007 10:56

I've posted this before, but it seems apt to put it on this thread. Have a look at some of the entries around evolution

They put the "mental" in fundamental.

lionheart · 01/04/2007 11:04

Oh, Lord. Not sure I can look.

Blu · 01/04/2007 11:15

Hmmm. My Mum chained herself to the doors of the LEA offices 30 years ago to insist on school place for my sister in a school that taught separate science subjects across all the disciplines, rather than the rather weedy one-lesson 'science' at the local school she had been assigned to.

Judy1234 · 01/04/2007 11:37

grannyq, yes and I think they're building a theme park to debunk what they see as the evolutino myth. Apparently in Noah's ark the reason the dinosaurs fitted in is that baby dinos walked in there, not grown up ones. Weird. I suppose if God went "zap" to create everything including fossils he could create anything at one fell swoop 6000 years ago including a means by which things might look a million years old but not be so, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me.

In a sense part of the problems came when we merged CSEs and O levels. O levels were taken by the brightest and were quite hard. Lots of children could only manage CSEs and having that division I thought worked quite well. Some private schools (but not most) now do international GCSEs/O levels which are more traditional and harder but we don't really want a private school/state division in terms of exams. It's bad enough having an A level / IB divide as it is.

grannyquackersleetlefuffychick · 01/04/2007 12:36

what i find scary is the blind faith . i do respect people's religious beliefs as long as they're willing to look at evidence that might contradict those beliefs.

as for science exams, i've given up on trying to follow what's what. my ds who's 14, is doing papers in gcse biology, chemistry and physics this summer. he's also doing biology and physics seperately as part of the normal gcse's, and one of his teachers tried to explain to me if he gives something up they can all meld into one. i just nodded. i'm not sure i've got that right.

it's not like the old days when i got an unclassified for my first attempt at chemistry o'level.

RosaLuxembourg · 01/04/2007 13:50

Blimey, if that evolution is bunk link hadn't been datelined two days ago I would have assumed it was an April Fool. I would love to see a similar UK survey about belief in evolution and christianity.

Judy1234 · 01/04/2007 14:03

Well loads of very silly British citizens believe in reincarnation and ghosts. It wouldn't surprise me what people believe. Believing the bible is the least of it.

Yes, I always found science exams hard to follow. I think my children did double award science? Is that 2 GCSEs? I'm not sure. I never understood it and I've had 3 children going through it in the last few years. I think they all gave up biology and then got 2 GCSEs in physics and chemistry and that was called double award science or something.

nikkie · 01/04/2007 14:24

I did dual award science,covered all 3 sciences but only got 2 GCSEs for it.

Judy1234 · 01/04/2007 14:58

In that case I've no idea except my children got 2 science GCSEs out of whatever they did and didn't do biology unless I've remembered that wrongly too. Perhaps they did do biology. Some of their friends did triple award which I assumed meant all 3 sciences and I suppose you can do an easier version which gives you one "science" GCSE.

Blandmum · 01/04/2007 15:24

If you do double science GCSE you study Biology, Chemistry and Physics and get two GCSE's 'worth' out of them

Separate sciences are the old style GCSE Biology, GCSE Chemistry and GCSE physics.

Doing double science is no handicp for further study at AS level. My lower sixth have just doesn their first module and 12 out of 24 (all of whom did double scince) got A grades. One child scored 99/100

Blandmum · 01/04/2007 15:29

Re the diploma I don't see it being that popular. We already cover more applied stuff in applied science GNVQs and BTECs.

however if it gave a level of science study that was appropriate for the very lowest attainers, then it might be worth while. At present all children have to study scince and for some of them they stand no chance is getting any form of staisfaction since the study we offer them is too difficult.

While such a diploma wouldn't suit more elitist tastes, I feel it would be helpful in enguaging the least able students.

Lilymaid · 01/04/2007 15:59

I would have thought that Foundation Level Science is as basic as it could get. The government might like to prioritise the training recruitment and retention of science teachers and making sure that all schools had sufficient text books and equipped laboratories.

Blandmum · 01/04/2007 16:14

Fully agree with you re retainment and equipment.

However we have children who cannot cope with Foundation. With ever more children 'included' into mainstream we have increasing numbers who cannot cope with Foundation level science.

Something appropriate for them would be a positive step

DominiConnor · 01/04/2007 17:12

The thing about creationism is that it's also dumbed down religion, and not only unsupported by the Bible, but at variance with the more complex bits of Christian teaching.
It's a symptom as much as a cause.

A common term used by the subset of Christians who push this is "comfort". They don't want kids who question things, whereas anything that resembles science is a form of argument. Science is not the truth, it is how we work out what the truth might be.

Kids vary hugely in their ability to "do science", and of course many will end up working in a shop or driving a minicab. For far less than 1% of the population does the shape of the Earth matter, let alone competing ideas about the interpretation of the fossil record.

The "legacy" of science teaching for these kids as adults should be the ability to think about evidence, as well as some "life skills" . To me the ability to change your mind in the face of such evidence is as much a life skill as learning to change a plug.

That's part of the problem I have with "applied science". It cannot help but be a list of facts, which is bad enough ,but those facts will go out of date quickly, leaving them with no ability to learn new things as they come along.
Also the set of "useful" scientific skills is simply not predictable.
During the birth of DS1, after the equipment had gone wrong for the dozenth time, my self control collapsed, and I snatched the foetal monitoring gear out of the hands of the midwife. The connection wires had come out, and she'd never learned how to deal with this, whereas I'd learned that before she was born. That does not make her a witless incompetent, nor me a master of medical technology. She'd left school (I guess) more than a dozen years earlier, and no one could have predicted that being useful.
Personally I would ban the teaching of computers in schools tomorrow. This is the most extreme of the bogus "applied" subjects.

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Blandmum · 01/04/2007 17:56

I'm sorry, DC but yet again you are wrong in terms of what you say about modern science curricula.

Applied science is most definalty not a list of facts. Our applied science Btec covered just the sorts of things you are describing. Students are garded on their ability to carry out tasks in science, so for example producing a salt. they are graded based on how much assistance they need.

they are also expected to undertand H and S. They are also expected to write and follow SOPs for tasks in the lab.

All very valid hands on stuff and no lists. Now all we need to do it get people to understand what this course consists of instead of spouting half thought out 'facts'.

DominiConnor · 01/04/2007 19:55

MB are we talking at cross purposes here?
I'm referring to the new applied science for dummies, I referred to in my first post....

I'm all for health and safety training, and I guess that goes out of date more slowly than the other stuff.
However, I can't agree with you that H&S is science. I got H&S training in metalwork as a kid, wasn't science there either.

That's not saying it wasn't useful, just not science.

You call me out of touch, and ordinarily I'd defer when talking to someone like yourself on the front line.
But you aren't in the average school, and certainly are better qualified than the average science teacher.
Thus I feel you go too far the other way.
You honestly and perhaps correctly see your school teaching kids some things that may be useful in low end technical jobs. That can make the difference between someone getting a decent job or not, and is thus hugely valuable.

What I find it hard to believe is that you think this is what's going to happen as a norm.
I think we both know that science for dummies is cheaper to teach, and doesn't require so much in the way of qualifications from science teachers. Thus for many kids it will be the only "science" course on offer.

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beckybrastraps · 01/04/2007 20:24

We did certificate of achievement with our weakest pupils. Short topics, practical focus, teaching key concepts through some everyday examples. I thought it was pretty good actually.

And impossible to fail. Do we want children to fail? These children knew they were no good at Science, but they had to do it. It's the National Curriculum. So you can tailor a course which teaches them some key concepts and useful facts, while still retaining some interest for the two years they have to study it. Or you can rail against "Science for Dummies", make them do dual award GCSE Science and watch them get a G. It's not kidding them that they are genius scientists. It's keeping them interested in Science.

There should be Science for everyone IMO, dummies and all.

beckybrastraps · 01/04/2007 20:31

Actually, I take the point about schools offering a reduced science curriculum. I was astonished to read on MN of an A-C standard pupil being allowed to study only single award science, thus preventing her from doing A level science. Schools should ensure that a child studies the most appropriate course for them, leaving all options open. And for a bright child that will be a broad, balanced, higher level dual award GCSE or 3 single science GCSEs.

And bugger choice .

Blandmum · 01/04/2007 20:33

The school I work in got an *A to C pass rate at GCSE of 54%....round about the national average. So wrong, I'm afraid.

and yes, we did seem to be talking at cross perpuses, I thought you were talkng about all Applied science as 'learning lists'

I teach kids. My aim is for them to reach their full potential, be that getting to top flight universities, or simply getting the lowest qualifucation available. You , on the other hand differentiate between the elite and 'dummies' How abhorant!

I sugest you look for a 'Compassion for dummies' DC it would be right up your street.

Blandmum · 01/04/2007 20:34

BBS, none of the schools round with us offer single science. Do you know what the national uptake is?

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