11+ mystery.... can you shed any light?

[MissMisery]

My DS1 is going back to school to sit his 11+ this Autumn. (Don't even get me started on what a dreadful system I think this is... that's a whole 'nother thing....)

Anyhoo, we have been told that the pass mark is 121 (or more obs), and that if you reach this mark, you will get a place at grammar school.

My question is this: How can they possibly ensure that EXACTLY the right amount of children pass to fill the EXACT amount of places they have available at grammar schools?

At my sons school, the pass rate varies between 25% and 60%, which means a variation of approximately 20 pupils (for his school alone)

When this issue was raised at a school meeting, the head muttered something about 'standardisation' of marks, but didn't clarify further.

I would very much appreciate clarification from someone with inside knowledge.

Thanks in advance

The 121 won't be the raw score but the standardised score adapted according to the actual scores children get.

If you Google standardisation you will find an explanation by (I think) Nfer. Basically everyone's raw scores are plotted into a curve to achieve a pass rate of about 30% (I'm assuming you are in Buckinghamshire), so the actual mark to achieve 121 can vary by year, and by month as the process is done for each month of birth. The mean score will be plotted to be 100 (again, I think). I'm no statistician & I'm sure someone else can explain it better, but that's the general idea.

There you go Poisoned has explained it more clearly than me.

It's also how sats are scored now.

Where we are the pass mark changes every year as it ensures the top 25% 'pass' and attend grammar ( actually it is 20 % on the test and then 5 % through appeal.) This should ensure all get a place

However, in past years there have been some children who passed the test but didn't get a place at grammar. Not common, but can happen sadly.

Where we are the mark shifts slightly every year to make sure there are enough places for everyone who passes.

In Bucks they don't. You get your standardised score and then places are allocated at grammars in accordance with their admissions criteria. So, for girls, simply passing the 11+ does not get you a place at the highly oversubscribed Dr Challoners or Beaconsfield High if you live outside the catchment, but for Aylesbury High you stand an extremely high chance. Even being in catchment doesn't guarantee a place. I know of a boy who scored 136 in his test. Lives in Henley, didn't get a place at William Borlase even though he was in the catchment area.

If you have your heart set on a specific school then he needs to first of all get the 121 pass mark and then be as close as possible to that school to guarantee a place.

How can they possibly ensure that EXACTLY the right amount of children pass to fill the EXACT amount of places they have available at grammar schools

A grammar school with a fixed pass mark for the entrance test is permitted to leave places empty if there aren't enough applicants who have achieved the pass mark. So if the school has 90 places available but only 80 applicants achieve a score of 121 they will leave 10 places empty.

If more pupils achieve the pass mark than there are places they don't have to admit all of them. Normally there will be oversubscription criteria to sort out who actually gets a place. However, schools can admit beyond their published admission number if they want so, to take my previous example, if 95 applicants achieved the pass mark they would probably be able to admit all of them.

If the school has actually said that everyone passing the 11+ will get a place that is a real hostage to fortune which could come back and bite them if a lot of pupils achieve the score.

The grammar near me passing the test doesn't guarantee entrance, just means you can apply - then a few months later you hear if successful due to usual sibling/distance etc. criteria. Far fewer than 20% though!!

In Bucks I am not aware of any child attaining the pass mark in catchment does not get a place. I am interested that Henley in Oxfordshire is in catchment for a Bucks school. If it is, then I assume the distance from school rule would apply.

Bucks is a county test, not a school test. Parents are encouraged to put down more than one grammar school on the preference form. The LA sometimes offers second choice if distance comes into play for qualifying for the first choice school and years ago, a higher test score has been used to reduce those eligible for the most popular schools, e.g. 125.

Also children in one school where 60% pass may well be balanced out by less good results elsewhere. And vice versa. The distance from school and whether all catchment children are admitted is published by Bucks for each school. The main advice is to apply for catchment school/s and look at the info Bucks have on their web site. The schools rarely all fill up because plenty of appeals are successful. However, appeal places won't be offered the most popular schools which are already full from the first allocation.

Henley on Thames is not in catchment according to Sir William Borlase's web site catchment map. That will be the reason the child wasn't offered a place. Other qualifying children lived nearer and even if they had 121 they would have been offered a place over a non catchment child with a higher score.

To clarify - the child from Henley was in the catchment area but only just (they live slightly north of the town).

SWB appear to have taken all from Bucks catchment for the last 3 years. Also many from the Windsor/Maidenhead catchment. So not sure what year SWB didn't take all from Bucks catchment. Just north of Henley isn't even the furthest corner of the catchment so is nearer than some children in the far west of the catchment.

He most definitely did not get a place even after appeal. He went to another Bucks grammar (which he is outside of catchment for).

But a got a place at a grammar, just not his first choice. Just because you are in catchment there is no guarantee of a place, those closest get them first & they publish the distance of the last one admitted.

"It's also how sats are scored now" no it isn't SATs used scaled scores not standardised score a totally different system

Except of course they're not totally different. They're both ways of taking raw scores and giving something that is more useful for making comparisons, which is what the original question was about.

Except it's a totally different "measuring" system so you can't compare.

I knew I had come to the right place!

Many thanks for your explanations... particularly poisonedbypen..very helpful.

Also, Bucks publish the numbers allocated places from Bucks primary schools/living in Bucks, those in catchment which can include other areas, and then those from a wider geographic area. Some grammars only have about 50% Bucks children. Therefore there is considerable flexibility for the LA when places are allocated. For example you would almost certainly get a place at any Grammar in Aylesbury if you live in catchment. Ditto Buckingham. The competition for places within catchment is more acute in Marlow and Amersham/Little Chalfont and Beaconsfield. However a score of 121 and above does mean you get a grammar place. As only one grammar is currently not outstanding, it's hardly a bad situation to be offered an alternative place.

Mrz obviously you can't compare scaled scores and standardised scores. I was explaining that it's basically the same kind of principle. I think you're just splitting hairs.

As others have said Bucks (which I assume you are talking aboudtandardises scores).

For those talking about SWBGS. My children are there - a pp said they have taken all from Bucks in the last 3 years. This is not strictly true. The last 2 years they have offered catchment up to 3 miles. So only catchment children got in but catchment does include Bisham, Cookham and a little bit of Maidenhead. Henley is OOC. OOC according to the admissions policy (on school website) is offered by distance after all of catchment are offered and also after OOC siblings.

Zodlebud you need to read the info about Bucks 11+ on their website. You either qualify or you don't - 121 is qualified- 136 is not any more qualified.

Tge child wasn't offered a place as they were way out of catchment and distance didn't extend that far - again admissions policies are very clear and in the schools website .

The cohort starting year 9 in Sept did offer OOC but that was the last. The school takes an additional 20 ish children into year 9 - traditionally this includes some Henley children. Off the top of my head (admissions policy will of course clarify) these places are allocated by score I think.

Toclarify - the child from Henley was in the catchment area but only just (they live slightly north of the town).

Henley is not and has never been catchment for SWBGS or indeed any Bucks Grammar school.

Actually looking at the catchment map, it does go to just north of Henley, although I don't know how far the actual allocations go these days.