What do you think about Grammar schools?

[StickyNote]

I'm genuinely interested in anyone's opinion on Grammar schools or selection at age 11 or 12 in general.

I live in a county which has always had Grammar schools and the 11+ and I went to an all girls Grammar school. I've just finished a conversation with my sister who lives in a county with comprehensive schools and kids still have to do an exam at 11 to be able to get into the comprehensive of their choice.

Bearing in mind that the Govt is encouraging schools to specialise in different areas, isn't this a return to the Grammar/technical/sec modern system in a different guise? Wouldn't it be more benefical for our kids to go to a school that suits them i.e. more or less academic/vocational/technical/trades etc.? So the 11+ would be seen more as a "let's see what you're good at" exam, rather than something to pass or fail?

I know this is an area where people have strong opinions and I would be very interested to hear them.

OK, hands up who can multiply 1400 by 1375 using mental arithmetic? I probably could do eventually, but it would take ages, and I would need several goes....

I completely agree with all the points here, and yet I still feel slightly uneasy about pigeonholing 11 years olds to the extent of sending them to apprenticeship type colleges. I know quite a few people who failed their 11 plus but then got 7 good CSEs (yes, I'm that old ), transferred to grammar for 6th form and then went to university. It would be a shame if that route was completely closed to late developers.

I agree Tamum, and I think that was one of the big gripes against the grammar/ secondary modern/ technical school system wasn't it? The fact that it was all decided at 11 and there was no flexibility within the system until you got to A level and could transfer to sixth form.

Agree with you Tamum. However I know lots of 14-16 year olds who are currently getting nothing out of the education system as it is too academic and they are switched off. I'd like to see real choice within a school, with good quality applied GCSE, in vocational areas offered to these kids. English and maths could be targeted to practical skills, like book keeping. The voactional GCSEs should be regonised by trades as a way into modern apprentiships. As it stands I end up teaching photosynthesis to disruptive kids who don't want to be there and do their damndest to wreck the lesson for everyone else. Wouldn't it be better if theu could do a GCSE in mechanics, if that is where their interest lies?

I had a similar experience to LunarSea (although not quite so extreme). Mine was the last year to be selected & the following year they combined 6 schools into one. We went into mixed ability classes & those of us who were easily led suffered verbal bullying from the less able kids who didn't want to be there.

I now live in a county with grammar schools & have 3 of my children at grammar & 1 (with SEN) at a high school.

Saw in one of the papers today that grammar schools will be excluded from the governments new plans because they still don't agree with them! So it's OK to be a really good sports player or an artist or a musician & you get all the help going. If you are academically clever you are elitist & therefore left to your own devices!

Oh and dh could do the mental maths, but I have always thought him a little odd!!

There was a bit of flexibility - there were 13+ transfers into grammar school. Few and far between, admittedly.

There is a difference though between "11+ failures" and those like a neighbour of ours who at nearly 21 is a superb mechanic but spent 5 fairly wasted years at secondary school - I'm not sure if he's dyslexic or something more complex but he got something like 2 grade Es at GCSE - which was still good for him and his mother was very proud but it's not much to show after 5 years. (OTOH he is still going out with the girlfriend he met there!)

Surely he would have been better off at an old-fashioned "technical" school doing eg basic literacy and numeracy plus practical skills?

What happened to all the technical schools? My uncle went to one, left at 14 and went into the GPO as it then was (now BT) to do a modern apprenticeship. Because he was paid and saw other, grown up workers functioning in jobs, he could see the point of his education/ training, which he'd never been able to see before.

This is just the sort of thing that I think would help to switch a lot of kids (very often boys) back onto learning. They need ti see why they need to work! It would also be a big help for those kids who come from chaotic home environments where there is no history of people going out to work. Kids need positive role models

But dinosaur I DON'T know what 12 x 12 is. I have to think 10 X 12 then add 24. For 8 x 6 I have to wokr out 5 eights (byt running through my tables) then I have to add eight! That's why knowing my tables would help. Also my dad does all this rounding down to an easy number to multiply then adding the extra bits on.

I have my bigest problems with the 7, 8 and 9 times tables. When I had to do my maths skills test I jotted them down as quickly as I could!

9's are easy (up to 10 x9) as you can do it on your fingers.

Way too difficult for me, m'dear

the crap spelling is, oddly, a great aid in teaching. The kids love to catch me out. When I correct their spellings and they moan I always say , 'well you don't want to end up like me, do you'. Always gives them a laugh, and helps the dylexics not to feel maginalised.

ok lesson in 9's hmb. Hold both hands in front of you palms towarss you. 8 x9? Count your eighth finger starting with the left hand- then moving onto your right. On both hands start with the thumb. Put your eighth finger down Anything before the eight finger is a 10 so that =7 fingers therefore 70 anything after the eighth finger is a single unit = 2 fingers therefore 70 + 2 = 72.

This is almost impossible to explain without a diagram!

another one 6 x 9 =? 6th finger = thumb of right hand. You have 5 fingers before that (all your left hand) = 50. You have 4 fingers after that = 4 therefore 6 x 9 = 54!

Bloody magic!

Why did no-one ever explain it to me that way before.

I'm gob smacked!

The downside is that if you do it like that you never learn the 9X table by rote, so you sit there in your A level maths sticking one finger down and counting the others.....

(bitter, moi?)

My friend taught me when I was 9- I think her dad taught her! it's great isn't it!

Fab for the Kinesthetic learners! I'm storing that one away for later use!

It's up there with my 'They can't take this away from you in the exam' model of the motor neurone, AKA the hand and arm.

the times table hand thingy is fab!!!!

i was also taught something to do with twsting my hand to remember the direction of current in an electromagnetic coil
if any one is interested........

\link{http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.97/jones1.html\nine times table explanation

try again

another for the nine times table.......

for eg 9x7 - the answer begins with the number below the 7 (eg 6) then add a number to the 6 to make it nine ie 6 = 63

does that make sense
the digit sum of multiples of nine is nine.....

any more tricks needed?
sorry - what is this thread about again!!

And the multiles of 9 reverse their digits if you stack em up like this:

09
18
27
36
45
54
63
72
81
90

multiples.....

I like the idea of a 'lets see what your good at exam' at 11. I wish we all had a good selection of schools to choose from after such a test.

Just for the record, here are my son's choices:

4 non selective local comp schools. At each, approx 30% of children leave with 5 GCSEs. So set that against the national average of approx 50% and it's not too good, is it? The only comp school that hits the national average in our borough is so far away my son will never get into it.

So, we'll put him in for the selective test in the neighbouring borough (we live close to the borders) and see if he makes it into one of the 4 very oversubscribed grammar schools. If he fails to get in, he might get into one of that borough's comps, which get slightly better results.

I know I shouldn't just think just about the results, but really I don't feel we have a good choice. I look at the results of non selective schools in Devon where my PILs live (I'm thinking Ivybridge or Kingsbridge commummity college - 70% approx leave with 5 good GCSES) and I could weep. Huge difference isn't it?

I haven't quite entered the stress zone yet - we have to visit secondary schools next term and fill in application forms. But I have seen how my son behaves(badly) and learns(not)in a primary school that does not do too well in the league tables. In fact two of them. At the end of year 1 he was put on the SEN list for behaviour, at the end of year 2 teachers felt he was getting worse, not better. He is an easily lead, exciteable, not particularly motivated type of boy who needs a calm disciplined type of school in order to do his best. It was only when he went to a better primary school, more strict with higher expectations of its pupils and with smaller classes, that he managed to change. The head of his present school has openly and emphatically told me, dh and also ds himself, that had he continued to go to * school, he ' dreads to think what would have become of him' These are the head's words, not mine. Yet if my son doesn't get into a grammar school he will be going to the the equivalent secondary school as the two previous primary schools he attended, so I fear that we will be back to square one.

I hope I do not come across as too precious a mummy, but I have seen at first hand how different school environments have affected my son. Sadly in my area, the possibilities of getting him into a decent school are limited. All I can hope for is that when I see these 4 local non selective schools I will feel better about them, becuase chances are my son will be going to one of them.