Medicine - a lower status career?

[ridinghighinapril]

Just read the "states schools eclipse Eton in A-level rankings" thread in the secondary section. A couple of posters mentioned that medicine was viewed as second-rate career (paraphrasing, as I can't remember the exact terms used) by those in private schools.
I was a bit but curious whether there has been a shift in perception. Interested to hear views!

*yed

Bloody hell, too much wine!
*yes

My perspective is that it doesn't have he status it had, say, 20 years ago. When I left school it was the thing for the very brightest to do medicine. I'm not sure that's still the case. The fact is that compare to other careers requiring similar academic ability, it's pays extremely badly.

My GP friend hates the google generation because she has to up her game - they challenge her every decision and they should - it's their life! Although I love her as a friend she is my nightmare GP

I can't comment on your friend but it's no bad thing for induviduals to have to up their game whatever their profession. Maybe it's a reflection on your friend - only you/she can answer that.
However, re: google generation, I think the frustration is separating the fact from the fiction - there is no accountability on google (or the Daily Mail).

But when you visit your Gp and they have to consult goggle for your condition and you know so much more than they do - you no longer hold your GP in such high esteem.

Medicine is probably a bit too much like real work, for the Toff class to approve of it.

I'm fine about my GP googling things, sheesh! They will see how an unusual condition fits with overall health priorities & the patient presentation. In ways I could never understand. What the GP gets from googling is not what I as a layperson can get.

What the GP gets from googling is not what I as a layperson can get. Depends on the quality of the GP!

I've heard that quite a few public schools have chosen to have their pupils sit the IB instead of A-Levels, although that could be bullshit because I pay pretty much zero attention to the private sector of education.

I never thought Eton was in the top private schools academically anyway? More of a blue-blooded, secret handshake type of club?

Scrambled - yes my three youngest did IB but that is acceptable to UK universities including medical schools.

I feel law isn't being seen as lesser lately solely due to more women - since 2008 there have been fewer jobs for lawyers than before, and a lower percentage are very highly paid. Because it's therefore a less stable career than it was (although it's getting better as the economy is bouncing back, although growth still isn't what it used to be) it makes more sense for a person that way inclined to go into banking or something. It's not automatically a sensible decision any more.

Isn't it referring to the fact that that medicine is often seen as the big thing to aspire to by aspiring groups, rather than those who have arrived at the top?

Classic stereotype would be children of Asian first or second generation immigrants who have a great work ethic and push their children to get into state Grammars, do sciences and then medicine. Children from state grammars are more likely to do medicine at Russell group Unis than perhaps classics or art history at Oxbridge.

Children from elite independent schools may do medicine, but their families may not feel the need to achieve a secure, well respected career such as medicine in the same way as some of those parents mentioned before....they are already secure and have the luxury of being able to do PPE or art history or classics or something with no obvious and definite career path.

Of course, the numbers in the elite independents are very small,mso for the vast majority of able children, medicine is still seen as high status and impressive.

In an academic independent day school or high performing state school medicine is still extremely highly regarded and the schools will often report on the number of children who get into Oxbridge or Medical school. Medicine may be more cultural and one of the things I've noticed from the list produced that many of the schools on the list have high numbers of children from Asian families where science is very highly regarded and encouraged and medicine is extremely highly regarded and encouraged and I suspect that may well play a part. Medicine is also incredibly well paid once you reach consultant level and can pick up private work. Takes a while mind you but it's v lucrative

i think you can earn just as much in medicine but with far less stress and more flexi-working in areas of computing and technology. The latter is way better for work life balance and you don't need these rigourous training placements and ongoing exams. Bright graduates in computing and data analytics can have starting salaries from £35 to £40K+ coupled with shares, hello bonuses and performance commissions can easily go up to £60 or £70+!! Then on going career is very highly paid.

I won't be encouraging my dcs to go into medicine, it's not worth the stress!

My Dh and I are in the it sector and I agree it can be more profitable for far less training and anti social hours, depending on how far you progress.

We earn the same as consultants but could have earned much more had we not effectively had many career breaks, part time working and steps back due to having many children..

I wouldn't encourage a career in medicine unless my children were hell bent on it.

Funny isn't it. My accountant, lawyer, bank manager all introduce themselves as Fiona, Piers and Liz and when they first met me called me Mrs Roses and we immediately became on respectful first name terms.

Doctors, unilaterally introduce themselves with their title if at all and assume they may use my first name.

I am not subordinate to a doctor just as my other professional advisers are not subordinate to me.

Sadly I think the medical profession is sabotaging itself with a form of arrogance and superiority that stopped being acceptable shortly after 1947.

Just as my other professional advisers don't provide their services for free neither do NHS health care professionals. It is free only at the point of delivery. My other professional advisers know what I pay them. The NHS does not. However if my other professional advisers were as rude as many in the medical profession they know they would not be paid and I would take my business elsewhere. With them I pay for what I get. With the NHS I pay much much more.

OhTheRoses - do you have recent experience of Doctors and hospitals? Because my recent experience is they do introduce themselves using first names, although will tend to be "Dr Max Bygraves" so you know this is your Doctor who on the letter was "Dr Bygraves". And actually at least at my local hospital everyone introduces themselves which helps a lot.

But I don't really see what your post has to do with the status of medicine as a career.

I do think that the working conditions have got to the state that schools and even "medical" parents might put prospective students off. For example the lottery of where you might do your first years after qualifying.

Yes. Very recent. Only last week a GO at my practice said. "Hello you must be Oh The, I'm Dr Patel. Happens all the time. Local hospital exactly the same except there if I'm with one of the children It's "you mum". Not even are you d's mum or mother". And these are supposedly the brightest minds. When I have said oh I'm sorry I didn't catch your name It's been I'm Dr Smith. "Then I think I'm Mrs Roses". And I don't want to call someone Dr Jane because I'd be uncomfortable being called Mrs Oh The, or Mrs Susan. It maintains their perceived superiority. Hello, I'm Jane, one of the GPS, Gastroenterologists, etc., is more than sufficient unless they wish to address me as an equal partner in the relationship.

Don't know what your point is all about; seems to me you have a massive chip on your shoulder talking about superiority and what not. It's just a traditional form of addressing a (qualified) medical professional and it didn't begin just yesterday or last week. It's always been like this since time immemorial. They do it in America, they do it in Africa, they do it in Asia, they do it in Australia. I remember even as a kid, my favourite TV programme was 'The Fugitive', Dr Richard Kimble, on the run from the law supposedly a wife killer. Just imagine, they still address a 'murderer' on the run, "Dr"!

In any case, I don't see how one would feel "inferior" when talking to a doctor. I've been undergoing treatment for a certain minor condition in hospital and I speak to my highly-qualified Cambridge-educated specialist with respect but in equal terms as patient and doctor and he does likewise. No problems there.

I see in some places of the world they address a person by their profession quite naturally, e.g. Lawyer Brook, Accountant Massey or Nurse Ratched, etc.

But what bugs me most is to see dentists being addressed as "Dr". Anyone cares to enlighten me why is this so?

Peteneras. No it didn't happen last week. It has continued to happen when hierarchies elsewhere have broken down. I work in academia and even the profs go by Joe, Fred, Anne and Clemmie now.

It's a perpetuation of a paternalistic system and interestingly when the dc were smaller a Dr would often call my husband Mr Roses whilst calling me "Oh The" or "mum". It's wrong on so many levels. Even in 1947 Drs addressed patients as Mr and Mrs. Society has become less formal and that informality needs to work both ways if partnerships are to be equal. That isn't being chippy, that's an expectation of being an equal stakeholder.

Also actually a Dr may prove any of my orifi and in those circumstances I'd welcome a little formality and a little less contrived chumminess. Being paternalistically subordinated doesn't put me at ease funnily enough.

Probe not prove.

I agree doctors should call patients Mr/Mrs etc unless the patient specifically states otherwise.

I agree being referred to as 'mum' when taking my children to the doctor is a bit annoying. However, I am there in the capacity of the mother to that child so as long as the doctor & the rest of the team are clear who I am then name, itself, does not matter.
Furthermore, although I am married to my children's father, I have not take his surname, so assuming I would like to be called Mrs X would be incorrect. I wouldn't personally be irritated, it's an easy mistake, but others are more readily offended & then would be a whole thread on MN about how dare the doctor assume I am called Mrs X, it's not 1947 anymore.

Definitely, a paternalistic relationship between doctors & patients is way outdated. However, to compare the doctor-patient relationship to that with a bank manager, solicitor is very different. There are obviously strict guidance about the boundaries of a doctor-patient relationship & avoiding first names with the doctor helps keep that barrier there. I, personally, would rather it was Dr Smith that stuck a probe into an orifice than John or Jane (a.k.a Dr Smith), it's a bit too familiar.

Schools are another situation where all the parents I know refer to the teachers & head as Mrs/Mr/Miss etc but not by their first name. A professional barrier from becoming over familiar with parents, which I presume will make teaching/disciplining their children tricky. Maybe a teacher will correct me on that!

I think the title thing is a nonsense - it means something just because it's tradition. A doctor does not introduce themselves by their first name so therefore should not refer to their patients by first name.
Took me ages to get used to the way to address teachers, it's bollocks too - I respect them no more because I refer to them by their formal title.
Dh deals with CEOs and directors of large Corporations and they are all on first name terms - funny thing is that knowing someone's surname in my social circle is another degree of intimacy...most people I know are just on first name terms.

Back to doctors - good career? a lot of them were bored to death by GP work but it worked well for having kids. Geriatrics was similar - boring but family friendly, GUM similar - high status? Really, after spending a lot of time with medical students you lose a lot of respect for the profession. If it's a high status career, the general public are deluded!

As I said earlier, there are clear professional boundaries between doctor and patient (as is between teacher & child, a parent is an extension of the child's set up). You can shag your CEO if you are so inclined.