Corporal punishment - should it be considered?

[Bambiraptor]

After spending some time teaching in a comprehensive in a deprived area of this country, I have been asking myself what will help the children who are so difficult in school. With the best of a teacher's intentions some children are just not interested in learning, and teaching becomes a battle. It is more about classroom management than anything else.
There are no consequences for poor behaviour and alot of the time no parental back up at all.
I totally disagree with corporal punishment. Full stop. My dad was is a retired headmaster of a private school in Kent and he is an advocate of corporal punishment as it worked in the school.
By brain is addled.
WHat do you think? DO you think teachers and schools should be given more power to deal with problem students?

i think micro managing the situation is difficult. which is why my solution is to take back the norm through parenting classes. I believe this problem can only be solved on a long term basis through Govt legislation.

Corporal punishment was used at my brothers' school. Getting the cane was seen as a bit of a badge of honour, so I'm not sure how effective it was as a deterrent.

What was a lot more concerning for me was the number of (older) male teachers who seemed to derive some sort of pleasure from it though.

Custardo, long term measures are all very well, but it doesn't solve the problem today. There will be a whole generation of children we have failed because we didn't get tough. Teachers are leaving the profession every day because of the nightmare situation they are in, with no support or power to change anything.
It is very easy to say that the badly behaved kids are vulnerable etc but a lot of them are totally unreceptive to any kind of help or out reach. They would laugh at it.

I think things have slipped into a really bad situation..some of these kids go to school because it's better than hanging around

schools are far too big

they are big because apparently you can't teach anything other than english and maths unless you have 120 staff on the books

it may not sound the best but what a proportion of teens want to study is music, cars, etc but they need to also get some business skills, pc skills, maths, english and working out how to get them to realise they can do these things and it will be worth their while is very hard

they lack maturity they lack forward thinking

they lack the stability

how to get those things back in and motivate them is not by corporal punishment

it is by investment and grass roots stuff

bringing people back in who have left shcool and realise they want to get qualificiations is one

a lot of them get to 20 or 21 22 they have their own children and debts and they need brigning back in and supported to get skills and education too this latter group are starting to get motivated if you give them back what they missed out on but they need child care and support and study skills then

the disaffected teens and the older ones who realise they need to do something could benefit from learning together

but it needs to be a real huge effort

Government legislation mandating tougher sentences for juveniles, Custardo?

God no. I wouldn't be a teacher if I were expected to hit a child, and I suspect many would say the same. And I think if you started trying to beat pupils, you would see an increase in attacks on teachers in schools. The children would see it as 'self defence'. I have taught in inner city schools and have never felt the need for corporal punishment. IMO, these most disturbed children are the way they are because they experience far too much violence, physical and verbal, in their everyday lives.

Boundaries of course, discipline certainly, but beating, no.

An it would be a beating that was required, unless anyone is suggesting that teenagers can be 'deterred' by a slap on the hand.

I think this is a move in the right direction. Schools are too big, understaffed and impersonal.

To be clear - I'm not necessarily saying the parents of these children are violent towards them. Just they are surrounded by a culture that does not promote restraint and respect. Outside the home as well. So if schools then become an extension of that, how will it help?

Actually, I think respect is something that some teachers need a lesson in. Demoralised teachers in a school which has changed in character since they started, who find it hard to adjust - I honestly think they contribute to the problem. And I'm not getting at teachers.

It is a very difficult situation.

Becky I agree. There does need to be a consequence for bad behaviour though. It needs to be something that the kids actually care about. Maybe community service, or some kind of hard work.

I agree with Socci, two wrongs don't make a right and it is abuse.

Corporal punishment was abolished just as I started senior school so I have experience of it in primary school and it was evil it really was.

I can remember when I was 6 a boy pooed his pants and after he was cleaned up the teacher put put him across her lap pulled how his pants and gave him about 5 lashes with a ruler. I was the model student at school (too scared to be anything else) and yet when I was 8 I was subjected to my knuckles being hit with a ruler because I was rubbish at art and had not cut my easter bunny card straight! If it comes back we may as well kiss goodbye the chance of a career goodbye because we will all be home educating our children!

tougher sentancing for juvies? don't know where that came from or what it relates to.

in relation to the solve the problem today mentality.

you think learning and teaching through fear is the way to go?

why do we not parent like that?

i cant see how this will workbecuase the dissafected kids will just walk out of school _ then you will have a problem with the justice system.

there are units for expelled children and children who are a danger to others to go instead of school. the children have two adults per child. it's possible to build a good rapport with them. tbh i think a lot of them don't stand a chance, eg, some of them forced to sell drugs by older brothers or get beaten up. lots have been subject to terrific abuse. i think there should be a lot more of these units because the well behaved children and teachers at school can get on with things.
also i worked as a sort of companion to children going back into mainstream school. i'd collect them from home or the children's home and stay with them through the school day. as they eased into it, i'd back off and go and sit in the staff room.

In answer to the OP - no. Society has changed since the days of corporal punishment and I would question how effective it was anyway. When I was at school it was always the same boys (v rarely girls) who were caned or slippered again and again.

I fully support Juule in HSE, I think it's the way forward.

No.
Support should be put in place to find out the root causes of the problems encountered by children with behavioural difficulties.
It is a very short sighted and ineffective approach to only deal with the consequences of those problems ie: the behaviour.
Teachers should be given real time to invest in the emotional aspects of their pupil's lives, instead of being bogged down with paperwork and targets.

I don't really think corporal punsihment is the answer.
I do think there has to be some element of fear invlolved though. Fear of the consequences of their actions.
Also maybe parents should be ultimately accountable and face a fine or some kind of penalty for failing to control their children.

How can parents control their children when they are not present in the school though?

If a student is behaving badly the schools can inform the parents. A lot of the time nothing happens or the parent will defend their childs behaviour.
It is like bashing your head against a brick wall.
The parents should be made at least partially accountable for their dc's behaviour.
I think what I am trying to say is that schools need more power. The fear of someone abusing that power has led to a system that fails teachers and pupils alike.

I teach in a school where chairs aren thrown and teachers are sworn at. I was told to fuck off three times last week , shouted at countless times and pushed across a corridor and I only teach three days a week!

I would not want to see Cp return although a surprising number of my colleaugues do. Lots of the kids I teach see violence and aggression every day at home so are hardened to it, it would be innefective IMO. But I know that somthing needs doing, lots of our students get sacked when they go on work experience and many find it hard to keep a job or college place after school.

Most of our kids tend to react bestto praise as they do not hear it elsewhere but there are a growing number who are unteachable and no form of discipline whether assertive or positive or any -ive seems to work.

A fine sounds great in theory but many of the kids I teach come from families who would add the fine to a list of other debts they don't pay.

Maybe we could introduce corporal punishment for the PARENTS of badly behaved children .

I think the big problem is that your school Senior Management Team arent supporting you. Teachers aren't paid to take abuse. Suspending or expelling a child is a reward as the kid thinks it is a holiday.

I don't agree with children being caned, but maybe a spell of hard labour and being denied food and drink if they don't comply would cut the the little S"@ts to size. Prehaps schools should have a few prison cells where they can put kids who throw chairs and make them suffer in solitary comfinement. Well... not seriously ...

Prehaps we should learn from the contintent where there are different types of secondary schools. Also kids who fail are forced to resit the year or move to a less academic school. I think the National Curriculum is far too prescrptive. There needs to be more special schools, particularly for kids with behaviour problems.

Children know their rights, but have no responsiblity. I fear it will get worse if governant makes education complusory until 18.

Sadly in the most deprived areas there are many children who are lovely. They do not get the education they deserve because of discipline problems.

But assuming that all children with behavioural problems should be lumped together in one place ie: put in special schools, shows a lack of understanding about the root causes, IMO.
One child may have behavioural problems because of emotional issues; one may be on the autistic spectrum, or have social interaction difficulties; one may have specific learning difficulties that have not been addressed eg: dyslexia; one may be too academically advanced and therefore behave inappropriately due to boredom; one may simply not give a toss about school, the staff or anyone else.
How would putting all those children in one 'special school' solve the problems?
Or is it just a case of getting the 'problem' children out of the way - which is a different issue altogether.
It is naive to think that all behavioural issues in school come from disaffected students with crap parents.

Violet - as things stand kids growing up in deprived areas who want to learn can't. Removing the disruptive ones who take up most of the teachers time would allow everyone the opportunity to get an education.

It really makes me that DH and I will have to somehow either find the money for a private school or to move to a middle class area so our dcs can get a basic education.

Whatever the root causes those disruptive children need specialist attention - it is naive to think an ordinary teacher can provide that at the same time as teaching 20 other kids French or Maths!

My friend teaches one class that has two very disruptive autistic spectrum children in it. Her working day is spent trying to maintain control of the classroom and she feels she is unable to teach.

"hard labour and being denied food and drink"

Jesus Christ, who are you??

Incidentally, it has been shown in recent studies that behaviour/concetration improves dramatically when children eat a decent breakfast and are allowed free access to drinking water.

So simply devising another form of physical cruelty to use instead of the cane is just senseless, really. Enforced hunger/thirst is corporal punishment.

Indeed.
Hence my previous post
"Support should be put in place to find out the root causes of the problems encountered by children with behavioural difficulties".