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Original poster

Teaching of multiplication tables.....

26 replies

KTeePee · 14/03/2007 12:55

I was thinking of posting this in the AIBU section but....

Anyway, dd's school (in common with most I believe) doesn't teach times tables by rote like in the good old days.... I can understand that they want the children to understand the meaning of what they are working out, rather than learning it parrot fashion, BUT why does the teacher then set tests where they have literally two or three seconds per "sum". I can't see dd getting any better at these tests unless she does go off and learn them by rote (she generally know them but has to think for a couple of seconds for some of them...)

And AIBU to get annoyed that it seems to be down to me as her mother to spend the time teaching her them by rote? It just seems that the school wants the children to learn them this way but won't spend the time in class doing this, perhaps because it is not the "pc" way to teach these days

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 14/03/2007 12:58

what year is she in?

yes, that's the way they are taught I think. I don't think dd has many maths tests where she has to think up the answers quickly though (or maybe she does, have no idea really ).

Are you/we supposed to be teaching them times tables at home?

hana · 14/03/2007 13:03

don't blame the teachers!

teachers only teach what is set down by current government. I'd ( and will be) teaching my kids by rote when they come to this. Schools and their teachers cant be expected to do everything

Furball · 14/03/2007 13:05

I saved this link from here for when it's ds' turn to do tables - could it be of use to you?

Ladymuck · 14/03/2007 13:06

I'm almost at the opposite end of this. Ds1 is having to learn all of his times tables as homework in Year 1. So in class they are doing addition and subtraction to 20, and this evening I've got to drill into him the 7 times tables. Be careful what you wish for!

I have found it useful to have a chat with the teacher to get an overview of how they are approaching some of these tasks and concepts. The dcs school view that the only way to learn tables is by rote, so they may as well start as young as possible, so that by the time they do multiplication and division they already know their tables. On the other hand they don't do column addition until Year 3 because that is the "easy" method, and they view that using other strategies is more helpful for mental maths work (and in general the school seems to promote mental maths skills above other numeracy work).

I'm not sure that there is an overall right of wrong order to all of this, but personally I found it reassuring that there was at least some sort of strategy behind it.

foxinsocks · 14/03/2007 13:07

I see what you mean KTP (thinking about it) - there's no way anything other than memory is used to work out say 7x6!

Is she in year 2? Dd is too and I think she's been doing the 2s, 5s and 10s (and some of the low 3s that can be worked out). I can see why they concentrate on them workign it out at this stage (because those tables are relatively straight forward) but it does seem unfair if she has to recall an answer quickly.

Clary · 14/03/2007 13:09

DS1 (now in year 3) had to learn his times tables in yr 2, some of them at least.
IIRC he started with 2x, 3x and 5x.

We use startegies to recall them - eg he knows 5x6 is 30, so 6x6 must be 30 +6. He loves doing them actually and is very good. But I'm not aware that we have ever recited them by rote. He werites them all down then we give him quick oral and written tests too.

singersgirl · 14/03/2007 14:05

We realised in Y3 that DS1 seemed to be expected to do maths that required him to know his tables, but he hadn't actually been taught them. So while he was OK on 2s, 3s, 5s and 10s, he still couldn't recall instantly that 7x5=35. So we just did them by rote. We are due for a review now, as he is still a bit hazy with 6 through to 12.

marymoocow · 14/03/2007 14:14

Had a parents numeracy meeting at school last week and according to teachers there, children should know all there times tables up to 12 by the end of year 4 (a new idea from the government). It used to be year 6 but they have just changed it.
Hope that helps (although not much help for my ds who has nearly finished yr4). We will needless to say be chanting alot on the way to school from now on.

Clary · 14/03/2007 15:45

funnily enough we had a numeracy meeting for parents too mmc, and we were told children should know up to 10x (not 12 times as no shillings now!) by the time they left primary school! A bit of a difference methinks!

Was my LEA lady out of date?

Original poster
KTeePee · 14/03/2007 17:02

Thanks for all the replies - my computer went really slow just after I posted so I gave up....

I've just had a look at the actual test she did recently - 70 sums to do in 3 minutes. The problem is the speed they are expected to do this at - of the 41 she had completed, she got 39 right. So she does know them, just hasn't been taught to do it fast enough. There is a difference between "knowing" them and being able to rattle them off automatically imo.

My point hana is that if the government is saying, don't teach by rote, them why is the teacher testing them in such a way that they will "fail" unless they learn by rote? If there is some government target that they need to be able to do X number of calculations in X minutes, then actually yes I do expect the teachers to be teaching them in such a way that they can achieve this....

We have started doing the chanting on the way to school btw but I am still annoyed. FFS when I went to school we had barely a fraction of the resources available today but we were taught the basics.

OP posts:
ChipButty · 14/03/2007 17:17

The government does not tell us how to teach just what to teach. It is up to the teacher's professional judgement whether or not to teach by rote and, TBH, EVERY teacher I know does this. However, children need to be able to apply their knowledge, so just learning tables parrot fashion in isolation is not really enough.

Original poster
KTeePee · 14/03/2007 17:29

Chipbutty - is there some sort of target though that says children need to be able to do times tables at speed? Dd is in Yr5 btw...

OP posts:
summer111 · 14/03/2007 19:15

In our Borough, they teach the underlining meaning of multiplication from Year 1 onwards. In Year 2, they are expected to know 2's, 5's and 10 times tables. Year three includes 3's and 4's and then Year Four does the rest. They certainly don't chant their tables in school the way we did but are expected to be supported in learning them at home as part of their maths targets.
They don't learn 11's or 12 times tables.
DD is now in Year 5 and since October, they have have had weekly timed tables tests - 100 questions asked.

Ali5 · 14/03/2007 19:25

As far as I know, the mental maths paper of the KS2 SATs gives children three types of questions, some that they have 5 seconds to answer, some 10 and some 15. So, yes, I suppose children have to learn how to calculate at speed - but times tables alone are not tested in that paper. Rote learning works for some children, not all so maybe that's why the teacher chooses not to use that strategy in lessons. IME parents that do things 'differently' to teachers often equip their children with good maths skills - do it at home if you think your dd will find it useful.

ChipButty · 14/03/2007 20:55

Exactly, Ali. There's more than one way to skin a cat..

hullabaloo · 14/03/2007 21:04

In my school we learn them by rote. The latest theories suggest that children should learn their tables before the age of about 8 ( I think!!) and yes current thinking is that you should only go as far as the 12 times table. I found a website called The Wee Red Box great for helping kids with mental maths and it times them so you can see that they are getting faster.

here I hope!

marymoocow · 15/03/2007 09:36

link didn't work. Would love to look at it though

pellshky · 15/03/2007 14:31

I wrote a times tables tester which can be found here . This has proved very successful for my daughter.

BTW, the broken link earlier should have been this .

marymoocow · 15/03/2007 21:51

Brilliant links. Think dc will find these really useful. Thankyou

Orinoco · 17/03/2007 22:52

Message withdrawn

Orinoco · 17/03/2007 22:59

Message withdrawn

princesscc · 17/03/2007 23:06

ELC do a tape and I think you can get a CD in Woolies. The tunes are quite annoying tho!

Orinoco · 17/03/2007 23:10

Message withdrawn

RustyBear · 17/03/2007 23:41

It depends what you mean by 'learning by rote' - knowing multiplication facts by heart, or knowing them just in order. If you spend ages chanting 'One times two is two, two times two is four ...' etc and don't learn them any other way, some children will find it very difficult to answer,say, 4x6 if asked in isolation - they need to work through from 'one times' - I have seen even Year 6 pupils doing this. So they need to move on from saying them in order to being asked to do them randomly.
Also, it is possible to 'work out' the higher multiplication sums - which is why they work on the concept of doubling and halving in Year 2, if they know their 'doubles' they can work out 4x8 from 2x8 and so on.

At our school, speed tests for tables are looked on as a means of improving speed, not 'failing' if you don't get them right - they are encouraged to concentrate on getting them right, then improving their speed.

DominiConnor · 17/03/2007 23:50

How do you teach times tables well ?
We're just hitting that point.
Currently my view is a mix of tricks and rote, but it's clearly very bitty.

Part of me really doesn't like TT's.
Arithmetic is to me the fag end of maths, and I think the soviet style chanting of random noises teaches nothing of any use.