HELP!!

[lousymum]

Apologies for the cheap sensationalist thread title, but I really need some help from sage old MNers.

I posted this thread last week about my ds1, who is 4.7 and at nursery school five mornings a week. I had a meeting with his teacher this morning, following last week's conversation about ds1's behaviour/abilities etc, and I need help interpreting what was said.

Initially she said that she had been talking to the headmaster (as we had agreed). She then said "In schools there is a thing called a Gifted and Talented register, but of course we wouldn't be looking at that at this age, although obviously he is very advanced in many areas".

Then she said that they had decided to to an IEP (Individual Education Plan) for him which would involve filming him for ten-minute periods, writing down bullet-point targets for him, having semi-formal meetings with me and dh every 6 weeks and asking us to keep records of his behaviour/our strategies at home. She talked a lot about his social skills and his ability to sit down, take turns, play and interact normally with the other children etc. She said that initially the plan would be for her as his keyworker, the head, and the SENCO (who is another teacher who ds1 really likes, I had noticed her having more involvement with him but wasn't sure why). She mentioned again that it might lead to an ed psych assessment, to which I said I would prefer to delay that for as long as possible.

So I'm confused - are they telling me they think he has SN, or his behaviour is so bad that they cannot manage him, or that they think he is emotionally disturbed?

I know I sound very ignorant, but I am worried, and I feel like a crap parent. I feel as though they are implementing martial law because I am failing him.

So I don't really

So I'm confused

Thanks WillowTree, I'm very grateful for the time and effort you've put into writing such a detailed post. In fact I always feel a bit choked by the level of support that's always available on MN for those of us who are struggling. SWMNBN can't have the faintest idea of what she is threatening here.

It's interesting that you mention expanding his other interests outside nursery, dh and I were sort of discussing it very loosely a few days ago, I said maybe it was time he had some swimming lessons/music lessons/dancing classes. He seems to have so much excess emotional and mental energy, I thought it might calm him down and help him sleep better if he had more to "go at" during the day. He really is relentless at the moment with his questions, it's more than one woman can handle!!! Especially given that his little brother is rapidly going the same way "What does XXX mean? What does YYY mean?", it's like having two little woodpeckers standing on my shoulders drilling into my brain On the other hand I don't want to become the sort of pushy parent who organises so much structured activity that he never gets to just laze about daydreaming or potter about with his toys and books.

He's already reading (not whole books on his own, but not far off), he read the sentence "a single egg is smaller than a grain of sand" in his "body book" (current obsession) without help yesterday but not what you'd call fluently, he had to sound out "single" and "smaller" and "grain". He's also writing in that he can form all his letters lower and upper case and can spell simple things like "bus stopping" and "I like you Mummy", and can do his own versions of words which sound phonetic, like "scool" for school or "culer" for colour. He can do basic addition and subtraction etc (I don't set him sums!!! he did it himself playing with letters on the fridge and beans and stuff).

I don't know where I stand on the issue of him starting school and being already able to do some of the things they teach in reception/year 1 already. I doubt he'll be the only one. I think I agree with the teachers that the priority is to get him understanding appropriate social behaviour and turn-taking and being generally manageable in a class situation, not least because if he is going to be a bit idiosyncratic educationally it would be better if his teachers and peers liked him personally instead of finding him a PITA!

At home I try to do lots of painting/sticking/nature-based topic stuff with a definite non-academic non-competitive slant. We do leaf-rubbings and nature hunts and paint-flicking and all that sort of thing (I think I enjoy it more than they do ) I don't want him putting pressure on himself at four, he is still quite babyish emotionally, and I really want him to enjoy the magic and wonder of being a little child while he is little, he has years and years to sit behind a desk pondering sums. But tbh HE drives both me and dh into teaching him more and more. He's like a little sponge. We do know a few other children who are very like this now too, which helps a lot - it's been great for him to see that he is far from the only clever child in the world and that if he wants to play with other children he can't always be in charge.

It's just the IEP thing that's new, and has knocked me, I feel a bit criticised IYKWIM. Or maybe I feel as though someone is saying that my beautiful boy isn't "good enough" That his social skills are lacking. I know I shouldn't take it personally, but it taps into my own baggage, I wasn't a great success socially either, and I know it was a disappointment to my parents. I remember my stepdad curling his lip and me and saying "no wonder you've got no friends at school". I don't want ds1 to feel like that.

Sorry, my post is ridiculously long

Greensleeves - for some reason, pre-school staff feel a need to pick up on social skills when faced with a very bright child.

When DS had finally succeeded in his campaign to move into the 3-5s group at nursery aged 2.5, it was against the room "team leader"'s wishes. She then proceeded to point out that he "didn't separate well from parent" - meaning he cried. It took me several fairly emotional meetings with the manager to get the point through that he only cried when it was her he was dropped off with - because he didn't like her!

My advice - take the IEP. Take everything you can get. Do not let your DS get bored if you can possibly help it - if he is as much like my DS as he sounds, his behaviour will deteriorate but, much worse, he might lose the joy he currently has in learning.

G&T is a naff label, but it may be a useful shorthand to get people to understand your DS's needs. Assuming you plan to keep him in the state system, this is a battle you will have to keep fighting. We were lucky enough to be able to put DS into a private school, for the next few years at least, where they are willing and able to be flexible about the age groups...

DS1 said this morning "No-one likes me any more"

He said none of the other children like him and want to play with him, and that he feels lonely. When I asked him about trying to join in with the other children's games rather than trying to get them to play his games (as agreed with his teacher) he welled up and said "I do ask, but the answer is always no, the answer is never yes, they just say NO, you can't play with us. I don't think anybody apart from our family likes me any more"

I told his nursery teacher that this morning and almost broke down in front of her. She said that he had said the same thing yesterday and that she had spent the morning trying to work with him in approaching the other children. She says their plan now is to film clips of all of the children playing, not just ds1 - and then sit down with ds1 and go through the footage talking about how the children are interactnig and how playing works.

I think everything that can be done is being done, but ds1 is a very unhappy 4yo at the moment. He can be so delightful and charming and bumptious, I just don't know what's happening to him at the moment.

DH wants me to ask for a proper meeting with the teacher, the Head and the SENCO to discuss everything. I'm not sure, I don't really nkow what to say to them. I was sort of expecting them to organise some sort of meeting about opening the IEP, filming ds1 etc - but so far I've just had a couple of informal chats with his teacher.

Sorry to keep bumping this, but is there anyone there who has any ideas? I am feeling really miserable about all this today.

I am assuming that your DS is in the "top" class of the nursery, is that right?

This time last year, was he there? And who was he playing with then? My DS was always playing with the older children....and your DS no longer has that option.

Getting him to play with all the other children may be a bit ambitious - any chance of encouraging one or two friendships to ease him in a bit more - perhaps the teacher could help identify some likely targets?

He's been there a year, so he is one of the eldest, but ther are at least 15 children who have known him since he was at toddler group and who will be moving on to school with him in September. I think it's just become more pronounced and obvious as they have all got older that ds1 just doesn't relate in quite the same way as the other children, or at least that's what his teachers are telling me. It's his unhappiness and his obvious feeling of being unpopular that hurts me. He says "People don't like me any more", as though he remembers when he was littler and the centre of our universe, and now he just feels as though he's failed and no-one likes him. I can't stand seeing him so miserable, I feel it's all my fault. Sorry, I am being very overemotional about this (sitting here blubbing)

Thanks for replying exbury, I really appreciate it.

Greeny - so sorry this is going on

My guess is that your DS is miserable because he has just found out that he cannot change his environment to always suit what he wants to happen. As parents we do our best to interact with our children on their terms, especially when they are little. We go out of our way to be interested in what they show an interst in (I certainly never got to know every Thomas the Tank Engines's name for my own delight, nor every team player in the premier league, nor every power ranger or star wards character)

They then go off into the big bad world and learn that not everyone is interested in their latest 'thing' and have to learn how to be interested in what others want to. I suppose how to compromise.

Some children are perhaps just more mainstream with their interests, so can always find a playmate who likes their kind of thing. Sometimes they are more 'quirky' and it takes longer to develop.

My DS certainly got into football in response to other children's interests rather than his own. But he enjoys it (but doesn;t love it) and can hold his own in any of the numerous conversations that are had on the subject.

If I were you, I would be happy that the school have noticed this issue and are working at it with him.

At home I would be inviting little boys home for tea every other night and listening carefully to what they are in to atm. Then I'd move heaven and earth to try and get your DS interesting in the same things. Keep the visitors on a one to one basis and be much more involved than perhaps would be usual - keep them on track and interacting

Good luck!

I am not trying to belittle the problem at all, but could your DS have worked out that "no-one likes me" is the easiest way to push Mummy's buttons? I still get "I don't want to go to school" occasionally from DS, and he is over it 5 minutes later (before we get there) and bounces in the door.

Finding him one special friend could still help - rather than him trying to play what all the others play, maybe there is one child who would take turns to choose what to do (standard arrangement with DS and his best mate)? It would be easier for DS to focus on.

I know it is impossible to step back - I ended up taking my mother with me to meet the manager when DS was having problems at nursery, cos I knew I would end up concentrating so much on not crying that I wouldn't remember what they said.. you have my sympathy, if nothing more helpful!

Thanks soapbox. I suppose more playdates with the little boys from the nursery would help, I'll ask him who he would most like to have come for tea.

None of the other kids seem to be having these problems though, the teacher is talking as though it's a really major issue.

Greeny - how 'quirky' are his interests?

What is he into? What does he like playing?

Do you think the 'no-one likes me' could be aimed at the teaching staff too Greensleeves? He may be feeling a sudden concentration on his behaviour, possibly more boundaries than he has been used to?

I am so sorry this is making you feel wretched, but you also have to remember that your ds is not you - social skills are leaned and he is still very very little.

I would definitely ask for a meeting - I think it helps to discuss things when you have some time to ask questions and your child is not there rather than at drop off or pick up times.

Hmmm, I think that the 'Nobody likes me' line needs to be thought of in the context of DS.

What he probably really means in his heart of heart is 'Nobody likes me, the way that you do mummy'.

He is feeling insecure I would think and he just needs to be reassured that other people do like him, they just express it in different ways. Perhaps ask him to draw faces showing how people who like him might look like - and how people who don't look like. Then try and narrow the differences with him

He's obsessed with the London Underground, drawing maps of it, memorising the routes etc - one of his teachers asked me to get a copy of the timetables of the tube trains on all the different lines because he kept asking "how long does it take to get from Goodge St to Holborn, or Paddington to Whitechapel" etc. He's also obsessed with the human body, again in a sort of fact-collecting way - what do platelets do, what would happen if you didn't have both your kidneys, what's inside ladies' boobies, why do livers grow back and other organs don't, whereabouts in your brain does the optic nerve go to. He likes "writing" (in a fairly limited way) little stories and making sign and maps and things. He's very interested in black holes, wormholes and infinity, and the afterlife and anything like that, where he can collect different theories and cherry-pick the bits he likes (for example he thinks the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was a giant flying saucer that contained all the animals that succeeded the dinosaurs , and he thinks after you die you go to heaven for a two-week holiday, then get reincarnated). He's a little fact-collecting sponge. He likes all the usual things too, trains, pirates, space, dinosaurs - but he tends to play in a different way from the others (according to the teacher, and IMO too) which means the others don't want him around. His teacher spent about 20 minutes yesterday coaching ds1 in how to approach another child and ask him if he wanted to play at pirates, then when ds1 did so the other child cried and ran away and ds1 ended up really upset and in a corner saying "nobody likes me" again. He tends to bulldoze other children or not bother with them at all, but at the same time he loves other children and he doesn't understand why they keep rejecting him.

It seems a bit odd that the teacher didn't realise that it might back fire!

Do they do show and tell? Could he take in a really interesting toy that the other children might be desperate to play with? That might draw them in more?

How does he play differently?

When ds2's behaviour went downhill suddenly at pre-school it turned out to be because he was bored. It really helped when the staff incorporated some of his interests into the sessions and let him take things a few stages further.

As others have said, the IEP is actually a good thing really. It will set out small targets for your ds and the methods the staff will use to help him achieve them. You should be invited to the IEP meetings so you will have a say in what is decided.

Ds2 recently had a visit from the Ed Psych. Again this could be a very good thing for your ds, not only for pre-school but also for when he starts in Reception. His teachers will have a much better idea of the level he's at so hopefully he won't be left to repeat things at school that he already knows just so that the teacher can assess him. The EP's report should also give suggestions about how best to work with your ds and how to challenge him without over-stretching him IYSWIM.

It sounds to me as though the nursery are making heavy weather of improving his social skills TBH. 20 minutes coaching?

I would be expecting them to be more hands on in sitting with him and a friend and facilitating their play.

I was told that the IEP idea and the filming and working with him on social interaction had been discussed and agreed between his keyworker (who is lovely but still in training), the headmaster and the SENCO. I haven't seen hide nor hair of the headmaster since it was mentioned, and the SENCO hasn't spoken to me either, so I feel in limbo a bit. I don't even know whether they've officially written up/started the IEP yet, or really even why they've decided he needs it now.

Agree with Puddle. At ds2's pre-school the staff sit with both children and basically help them along. There's no coaching involved whatsoever. Are the staff getting any outside help to advise about social skills etc?

I've got to go and pick him up, but will read this again later, thanks so much for the responses, I really needed to talk about this today!

I would ask when they are having the IEP meeting. At pre-school level the parents are usually consulted.

hi greensleaves - so nice to see someone who thinks G+T register is not such a good idea, i have just been through similar to OP with dd2 who ...wait for it...is 2.5 months old ffs. yes she is advanced but i told the nursery and ed psychologist to basically stuff any idea if targets and education plans and told them to get on with playdough and finger painting they are children , tiny chidren , i am grateful my dds can pull their own knickers up and like playing dollies at school or nursery rather than what targets they are meeting.

Aaaw Greeny - he sounds like a fantastic little chap

I don't have any advice over and above what's been given here. The IEP is a good thing - go with it, it's not a criticism of you, far from it, it's about ds getting the most he can from nursery/school. And he sounds 'ready' for school. My ds2 was; desperate to get on with things. His social skills were poor - definitely my fault on that score

Blimey mummydoc - 2.5months old - how the hell is she assessed as advanced at that age? Is she potty trained already? Talking? Walking? Or is she already holding intersting conversations in several different languages similtaneously

Blimey - thought I had long gotten over being shocked on this site