7% at comps get AAB

[Judy1234]

Just looking at today's FT schools tables/reports. Only 7% of comprehensives get pupils with grades AAB at A level. 62% of pupils get that at the best 50 independent schools (about 70 such pupils a year per school) and about 31 from selective grammar schools.

However the top 10 comps have 31% getting AAB which isn't too bad and the bottom 50 comps have 1% of pupils getting AAB.

The best comperhensive - Watford Grammar gets 8 Oxbridge offers a year.

But then surely you'd expect that. If the school isn't selective, whether it's fee paying or not, you can't expect to get lots of high a level grades so why does the Government want more children proportionately from comprehensives and (new rule) whose parents didn't get to university? It's like saying I want people who aren't right for this given preference over those that are. That these really bright pupils from the state grammar school whose parents both went to univesrity will not be allowed in but these rather thick children who have left it too late to be brought up to an Oxbridge standard age 19 will get preference.
www.ft.com/cms/s/4037c7f2-ceae-11db-b5c8-000b5df10621.html

Piffle - can you expand on the Russell group identified -how does that go with do not attain good GCSE's and A levels

Also does anyone know if many universities (Russell group or not) are insisting on foreign language GCSE (DD has choices to make this week)

..."to ensure that they do not attain good gcses and A levels." sorry, Piffle, you've lost me! Do you mean "to ensure that they do"?

Interesting point - I just want to make sure I've understood it

confusedandignorant - I have absolutely no information about universities in the UK that insist on a foreign language GCSE.

BUT in a globalised world, if you want your child to have an education that is internationally recognised as broad, he/she ought to study as an absolute minimum at GCSE:

mother-tongue
(at least) one modern foreign language
mathematics
biology
chemistry
physics
history
geography

hopefully he/she can also include one or more creative subjects (art, music, drama)

Anna,

I'm a bit worried by your proposed list. DD1 (about to make GCSE choices) wants to give up History and Geography! By the time she has included all the compulsory subjects there is only room for three optional ones, in her case another foreign language (one is compulsory), plus music and art both of which she is good at. (FWIW she hates both hist and geog and can't wait to give them up, but I never thought this would put her at a disadvantage. She wants to do vet science BTW).

lambchopandchips

I think that if your daughter is going to be doing two foreign languages plus music and art at GCSE it is less of a problem to drop history and geography (though still a pity) since all those subjects give real insight into culture and human experience.

Ideally we'd all study everything but in real life we have to make compromises.

That is basically what she wanted but unfortunately timetable does not allow this as have to PE and IT (nationally compulsory) and RE. Older DC's foreign language was compulsory both got good grades (A/B) but actually couldn't speak a word.

Would advise anybody (apart from those wanting a career in art or design) to do GCSE art as it can take up so much time as the coursework (60% of marks) is open ended as is the exam preparation and exam itself is several hours.

At least with music and drama there is the option of extra curricular activities

sorry meant NOT to do GCSE art

I know, GCSE modern foreign languages are a terrible standard.

International schools worldwide have begun to teach not to national or IB standards but to the Council of Europe internationally agreed harmonised standards for European language teaching. So if your child lives near an Alliance Française, Goethe Institut, Istituto Cervantes or Instituto Italiano di Cultura, you could have them do courses there as an extracurricular activity and take that set of exams which is much more valuable and more internationally recognised than GCSE.

My (monolingual French) stepsons do English classes in the holidays at the British Council in Paris and will do their exams in due course. Better than what they will get at English class in a French school.

FioFio

"I know, GCSE modern foreign languages are a terrible standard." - DD1 came back in tears recently - v. unlike her. It finally came out that she had done very badly - by her own standards - in a practice German GCSE listening test (she is doing this language this year - her choice - with my help). Apparently she only got 19 out of 50. This is a child who is normally quite bright and not used to failing. "It's only a C" she wailed. "Just a few marks more and it would have been a B!" She felt better once I explained that a C is a pass and so she had in fact done very well (though not as well as the rest of the class - it was that which bugged her the most!) but it got me thinking that the standards must be very low indeed if you can pass any exam with less than 40%! Having said that, from the revision material she has been given I was surprised to see just how comprehensive the course is and I must admit it is a lot more relevant than the GCE O-level course I took many years ago. If only the expected standards were higher for each grade, the qualification might actually be worth more than it is. I don't know if this is the same for the other GCSE's.

I've no idea about other GCSEs, I only know about modern languages because I see my little cousins and cousins-once-removed in the UK who have done GCSE French and Spanish and have got As and can't understand a word.

In any case, I think you have to do a lot outside the classroom (holidays, exchanges, extra lessons) to get to a good standard in a foreign language.

It is only in the last couple of years that formal grammar has been reintroduced into the modern foreign languages courses at KS3 and GCSE.

The lack of teaching of grammar in English schools is a national tragedy. It is so difficult to learn to express oneself coherently (in any language) without a good grasp of grammar.

At least here in France I know that my daughter will learn grammar.

"...who have done GCSE French and Spanish and have got As and can't understand a word" - yes, you are right. Even with O and A levels in foreign languages I didn't really begin to speak them with any degree of fluency until I actually lived in the countries concerned. Regarding the GCSE course, a very wide range of topics is covered but I think that developing fluency is virtually impossible in a classroom setting, especially if you don't have a native speaker to model your pronunciation on. That's why I'm taking DD1 and her sister to Germany for a few days at Easter to stay with an old college friend, who has offered to help. I'm also recording some excellent late night Learning Zone programs on BBC2 in the hope that an interesting story and dishy [fit???] male actors might be a bit more fun than listening to me droning on in a less-than-perfect accent!

Re Confused's comment about grammar: since tutoring DD1 for her German exam I have had to start from scratch on basic grammar topics such as sentence structure, subject/verb/object, etc. which is apparently not taught as part of the English curriculum. Not even in a grammar school !

When I was a teenager I used to read truly trashy French and German teen magazines and novels, and watch trashy French TV. My mother (quite rightly) would never have let me have such things in the house in English.

I learnt loads that way... was truly motivated.

Apologies to Xenia - I seem to have hijacked this a bit!

I wouldn't mind betting, however, that the 7% of comprehensives and the 62% of independents mentioned in the first post will all have thriving modern language departments - probably because the schools still require the students to take a language at GCSE even though they are no longer required to by law!

If you go on the FT web site you can see a list of the schools where the greatest percentage of pupils take at least one foreign language at A-level.

Perhaps a good time to switch to TV5 on the cable tv now that wonderful Richard Branson has taken away the sky channel - french cartoons may do the trick

The higher paper in maths has probably been dumbed down now the intermediate paper has gone glad to see back of coursework very repetitive as you struggle to find a formula for something and to get full marks you need to have done some of the AS work.

The A level maths is definately easier it can be done with 4AS type modules and 2 A2 modules (normally three of each and A2 are harder than AS papers)

"TV5 on the cable tv" Great idea, but do you know what number this is on the standard sky package? (Excuse my ignorance, I really don't understand how all the various non-terrestrial packages work!)

I've also remembered that a lot of DVDs come with a foreign language version. Watching Harry Potter in German (if provided) could be quite entertaining and not too difficult to follow if you're familiar with the original story! Not sure how good the dubbing is, though.

not sure about sky but on our ntl digital it is 825,

Thanks, I'll have a hunt around - might be able to find it.

Watching dubbed films and TV isn't great as (a) you don't get the mouth movements (b) you get no cultural exposure.

The best is to watch original foreign language films and TV shows. Maybe you could order them (amazon.fr or fnac.fr for French).

Back to original subject, maybe students from comprehensive schools don't always want to go to oxbridge. Friend of DS had Cambridge interview and felt out of place with the other candidates, must have done okay as offered place but went elsewhere with a wider social mix and is very happy. Perhaps just need to get above that critical number of state school applicants