Private Schools proposal for up to 10,000 free places each year

[Aussiejazz]

What do you think of this idea to offer up to 10,000 free places to lower income families each year?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/12/09/government-serious-schools-work-everyone-will-jump-proposal/

"I think the gov has missed a small point."

This proposals came from the ISC, not the government.

And ISC schools aren't likely to be struggling for numbers.

"Children with real musical or sporting talent can already get scholarships to private schools."

Yes, but.... The value of scholarships has plummeted (to fund bursaries)

ISC say their members already spend £350m on bursaries (not scholarships, if I read it right). Anyone seen the detail of this proposal - will this spending be diverted to support the new 'voucher' places, or will they be spending more?

It won't make any difference to their tax bill if they lose their charitable status. The plough all their fees back into education and school facilities, so they are essentially non-profit making. All that will happen is that they will have to use accountant to structure their their tax returns to demonstrate this.

Their charitable status an historic anomaly left over from a time when the concept of charity was viewed differently and education was seen as inherently charitable in nature, whether it was provided to the richest or the poorest in society. There are also a huber of schools that are not registered charities - newer private companies and a small number of family run schools.

Everyone is far too hot under the collar about charitable status. It really isn't something to get worked up about, nor something the loss of which causes much threat to the independent schools sector.

sorry for typos. In a hurry - huber should say number. Hopefully you can work the others out.

"the alternative is to lose their charitable status and have to pay full tax etc. on their assets, investments and incomes"

The tax 'break' is estimated to be worth £200 per pupil per term.

The real penalty is that there is no way to just remove charitable status (this has already been mentioned unthread, but I'll say it again for the benefit of those new to this issue: there is no way to remove charitable status. A charity that is not fulfilling its charitable aims, under the law as it stands, has to be closed down and all assets sold at full market rate, and all proceeds from those sales to be donated to another charity.

So it is 'be careful what you wish for'. If charitable schools were forced to close, the state sector would have to absorb these pupils somehow. Yes, there would be some overseas ones who simply wouldn't come. But in some parts of the country (London definitely) the chaos in state schools as LEAs struggle to find places will be awful.

Didn't the ISC calculate that the value of charitable status to independent schools averages to £200 per year per pupil? Many of them spend more than that on bursaries, and the cost of educating those children in the state sector is vastly more. But, and I'm going to shout because nobody ever seems to hear this, there is no way for a school to give up charitable status and continue to operate. This is unfair.

cross post!

Anothernewt
You know that quite a lot of private schools are companies, not charities
and would be unaffected by any change to Charity status - the infamous QE is a case in point

sixthsenseless
I am totally against any sort of selection in state funded education

• there should be no faith schools
• there should be no single sex schools
• there should be no selective schools
• all schools should have comparable decent funding
• applications should be transparent

you do not need to go to your nearest school, but the choices should be down to distance and spaces
weaker schools should then get more funding

oh and I LOATHE the sponsored academy system as it is opaque and corrupt

if you want to segregate your child from any other, then cough up the cash

I had an assisted place at a good private school. My parents wouldn't have been able to afford it. However it did mean that I missed out on many of the extras that my schoolmates took for granted, such as foreign holidays, Sky TV, days out, school trips and suchlike because once my parents had paid for the uniform and sports equipment there was no money left over for anything else, particularly as I also had a baby sister so funds were tight while my mum was on maternity leave and my dad was made redundant twice while I was there.

Yes, I know that many are businesses. I didn't think that was particularly pertinent to a thread discussing those that are charities.

Though of course, schools operating as businesses can offer bursaries too. I can think of several, not just QE (which certainly offers awards, but they don't seem to be bursaries in the usual sense, because of the repay conditions)

This is a proposal from ISC - has anyone listed their membership by charity/business status?

According to the 2016 annual report, 78% of ISC schools are charities.

I think it is a placating gift to families like mine (naice professionals) who have been priced out of private education. It would be highly divisive as very few of the most needy would qualify, know about it and feel comfortable about applying.
But some naice families would be lured out of the state system so state schools would be even less truly diverse/comprehensive.

Also I bet no-one will tell anyone of the disadvantages of being privately educated eg. no longer eligible for some courses and extra funding (Sutton Trust etc.

Oh and its a last desperate attempt to retain the VAT subsidy, which state sixth forms are ineligible for.

Many of them spend more than that on bursaries

My DH went to a private school and every year he gets letters requesting donations to the 'bursaries' fund, so I'm guessing that they don't come out of normal finances.

Last time I looked at the stats,, although it's 7% overall in private if you break it down by age it's way lower at prep level, but rises to about 20% at sixth form.

If private schools were forced to close because they cannot operate as charities, then those are the years that will really suffer.

So what? Point is, net flow of cash is from the parents, former pupils etc of the independent school to the taxpayer at large, not the other way round. That is, those using independent schools are not benefitting from tax breaks, as repeatedly claimed. To put it crudely, they could have charitable status removed, could stop offering bursaries, and would be more, not less, financially viable than they are now.

(that was to noble's " not normal finances" point of course)

Someone on an Eton thread was talking about how some ex pupil was told that the school needed a new whatever, they instantly whipped out their chequebook and wrote out a cheque for a million pounds.

Actually the thought that sort of huge amount of money would only go to benefit the kids of the already privileged made me feel slightly sick. I'm sure if private schools are struggling they can tap their wealthy old boys network for some cash rather than rely on state handouts.
And if they can't, then perhaps they're rather crap at what they do?

Yes, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Financially, independent schools could stop "relying on state handouts", ie benefitting from charitable status, tomorrow. The problem is that legally there's no mechanism for them to do so.

relax By state handout I meant the 5k that they are asking the state to provide for these extra places.

The Green paper suggests that their charitable status will be revoked if they continue to make token gestures, so if they want to lose it, all they need to do is sit tight and be stingy.

Old Boys contribute far more to their school's bursary funds than Old Girls.

If you go into a shop, and there's a coat you want on sale for 25% of what it cost to make, and you buy it and walk out, do you consider the shop to have benefited from a noblegiraffe handout?

The question of whether it would be strategically better for the ISC not to have made this offer is an interesting one, though. Doesn't seem to be doing them much good so far.

I haven't read it, but does the green paper actually promise to revoke charitable status and allow schools to continue to operate, if they don't do as asked? I had the impression that it was, rather, Do This Or Else, with revocation of charitable status as the stick that has to be fled. If not that's interesting.

TalkinPeace: we are on the same page.

I really was just trying to say that if that school nearby can educate the widest range of abilities (as it has a majority of places on distance and about two classes on test) , then so can any other comp. And many do - and do as well in relation to the spread of intake.

The green paper suggests two choices for independent schools:
To sponsor academies or set up a new free school in the state sector. The capital and revenue costs of this would be met by the government, but the independent school would have responsibility for ensuring its success. We would expect this school to be good or outstanding within a certain number of years,
or;
To offer a certain proportion of places as fully funded bursaries to those who are insufficiently wealthy to pay fees. We expect this figure to be considerably higher than that offered currently at most independent schools.

And they say:
We propose to set new benchmarks that independent schools are expected to meet, in line with their size and capacity. We think it is essential that independent schools deliver these new benchmarks. If they do not, we will consider legislation to ensure that those independent schools that do not observe these new benchmarks cannot enjoy the benefits associated with charitable status, and to result in the Charity Commission revising its formal guidance to independent schools on how to meet the public benefit test, putting the new benchmarks on to a statutory footing.

You cannot just revoke charitable status. That would totally turn charity law upside down. All the assets that are part of the charity would have to be transferred to another similar charity, they could not be transferred into an entity that did not have charitable status.

Nicely ambiguous. You could, presumably, through primary legislation, provide a path specifically for schools to become something else, but that isn't a clear promise that the legislation mentioned would do that. If I were advising the ISC I'd be advising them to ask for one, though!