Why is religion forced on all children at school?

[Kateyoz]

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

[CocktailQueen]

We don't sing in assembly either, it's not needed.



Singing - secular songs or hymns - is a lovely way for the whole school to come together and share music. Lots of wonderful things are not 'needed' but that's not a reason not to have them!!

[SpringSpringSpring]

SpringSpringSpring don't confuse church attendance with religion

True enough! And I understand the census data but the pp was claiming the majority in England are CoE and they are not even the Christian group with highest number of regular worshippers.

It just feels lazy to me, I get the idea some people tick Christian because it's what they were exposed to in school (and they like Christmas) so the things the OP is bringing up are important.

Fwiw I think learning about religion is v important and learning about Christianity is essential for understanding western art/literature etc.

[Scorbus]

Singing - secular songs or hymns - is a lovely way for the whole school to come together and share music. Lots of wonderful things are not 'needed' but that's not a reason not to have them!!

We come together in other ways, singing Morning Has Broken mournfully on a Monday morning is not the only way to do it!

[mrz]

People do tick Christian because that's how they were raised but they obviously consider themselves to be Christians even if they do not actively worship.

[JustRichmal]

In the last election most people voted Conservative. It is not a reason for schools putting their manifesto to music. However I would be happy for children to learn about politics.

[ReallyTired]

I don't think it's anyone's business to criticise the church attendence or the personal beliefs of someone who identifies as Christian. There are lots of Muslims who never step foot in a mosque but identify as Muslim. Religion and culture are very intertwined.

Many people see identifying as a Christian as part of their British identity.

[BertrandRussell]

"don't think it's anyone's business to criticise the church attendence or the personal beliefs of someone who identifies as Christian"

I agree. However, it is everyone's business to question the findings of a badly phrased question on the census form if the response is going to inform policy making. A less weighted question in the British Social attitudes survey shortly after the last census had, I think, 42% identifying as Christian.

[Beebeeeight]

I know of at least one local authority that has got rid of religious observance in all its schools.

I think this should be universal.

If you want a religious school, pay to go private.

[BertrandRussell]

Which local authority is that? How dd they square it with their statutory requirement?

[OurBlanche]

Meh!

Given that state schools are CofE by default//definition and you can opt put of the religious bits simply by filling out a form, I am not sure what the point of being pissed off is.

There will be future reform, it is inevitable. But you had better pray* that any and all reform focusses on the quality of education your kids get.

*Fully intended as I doubt any of the Goviots successors, of whichever political party, will have a fucking clue!

[Beebeeeight]

Not in England.

[OlennasWimple]

Singing is the only bit of religious observance that I miss from being an atheist.

Here in the US all religion is forbidden from publicly funded schools. Which means that they don't even talk about Christmas, Rosh Hashanah, Eid, Diwali etc etc (even Halloween is off limits...) which I find sad. I'd like to see a middle way - much like our DC's old nursery! - where they learn about major religions and make Christmas cards and Diwali lanterns but don't actually observe any particular religion. I can dream...

[JassyRadlett]

People do tick Christian because that's how they were raised but they obviously consider themselves to be Christians even if they do not actively worship

There's a huge and interesting gap between those who identify as Christian in the badly-worded Census or even in more balanced surveys and those who say they believe in any deity.

Which brings up interesting questions about what that self-definition of 'Christian' means if it doesn't encompass 'belief in the Christian God.'

For me, the difference is between education about religions on a neutral basis and collective worship that implies explicitly (per the law) or implicitly that the Christian God is the 'real one'. Religious education does the former (and gives children scope to explore religion off their own bat); collective worship does the latter. If its purpose isn't to indoctrinate or segregate (which baffles me in a society where we bemoan the lack of integration between religious and cultural groups), then I'm not sure why school communities wouldn't be better served by something neutral.

All a little academic for me as DS1 has ended up at a CofE school. I'm an atheist, though have never made any pronouncements about religion to him.m, beyond 'some people think' stuff in answer to his questions.

However just before school started he solemnly informed that he'd been thinking about it, and decided that God is dead.

I wish the school well.

[JassyRadlett]

I'd like to see a middle way - much like our DC's old nursery! - where they learn about major religions and make Christmas cards and Diwali lanterns but don't actually observe any particular religion. I can dream

I loved that about nursery. Completely even handed and massively celebratory of all customs and traditions.

[roguedad]

The issue is that the UK state shows total contempt for the UN convention on the rights of the child and allows state-run schools to promote religion in schools. It colludes with the C of E and other religious bodies to allow the abuse to not only continue but expand. The so-called rights to withdraw do not work properly because children who do so are often isolated and miss out, with no proper provision. I enquired about what happens and was told the school did not know as nobody had ever done it, and generally made to feel like a leper. I moved school!

Someone or group needs to prosecute the Secretary of State for Education and at least the CofE for its failure to respect the convention. It's pure abuse.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

What a very strange post. I've been going into schools for the last 10 years or so and leading assemblies as a Christian. Last term the theme in our church school was the fruits of the spirit - kindness, love, gentleness etc. I did a couple of assemblies at the non church school on ethics and where our values come from. I've taught some RE classes in primary as the teachers did not have the subject knowledge. That was really hard work as I'm not a teacher but I'm willing to give it a go. I fail to see how this is child abuse especially as I've worked with adults who have been abused as children. Leading assemblies on kindness and giving some space for reflection is not in the same league.

[JassyRadlett]

Leading assemblies on kindness and giving some space for reflection is not in the same league.

Out of interest, where did you tell those children our values came from?

[Peregrina]

I really think the grammar school debate is totally jumping the gun.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It's impossible to have formulated a coherent policy given the short amount of time that May and Greening have been in their respective offices, and given that neither have had any sort of Education brief before.

Our children deserve better; something properly considered and thought through, not this dogs dinner just rushed out.

[Peregrina]

Oops, wrong thread sorry, I had two open at once.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

In answer to JassayRadlett I didn't tell them where their values came from. I asked them what they thought. There were some interesting and thoughtful replies in the church school. In the non church school it was harder going but they are not used to me coming in and asking them to think about stuff like this. When I retell bible stories I don't tell them what it means. I ask them what they think and we get lots of ideas to work with. The idea that the vicar is coming in to indoctrinate small children is just wrong.

[JassyRadlett]

The idea that the vicar is coming in to indoctrinate small children is just wrong.

Then what's the purpose?

[mrz]

The same as any other visitor? We had a six foot dog talking about responsibility and someone talking about keeping healthy last week ...indoctrination?

[JassyRadlett]

Well, given the statutory purpose of said sessions - ie Christian worship - it's a reasonable question.

I imagine the six foot dog talking about responsibility had a goal that furthered the aims of his or her organisation. It's not unreasonable to ask which of the Church's aims the vicar is seeking to further by making time for these sessions.

[mrz]

Actually it's an act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature