If you're anti grammar schools, then please answer me this:

[Proseccocino]

If your child had a gift for music, then you might send her to a school which excels musically.

If your child had a talent for sport, you might send him to an academy which excels at sport, one where he can really focus and develop in the area in which he is better than his peers.

And so on....!

So, if your child is intelligent, academically gifted... Why is it bad to say you would send her to a selective school where she can study along with other bright students?

If it's OK to separate children according to ability in sport or music or drama or technology, and send them to specialist schools which excel in these areas - why is it a different story if their talent with their academic ability?

|LetitiaCropleysCookbook Fri 09-Sep-16 23:34:57 You cannot tutor a child to pass Is this based on ypur own assumption or fact?

What worries me is that the bright and gifted children, who already have the odds stacked in their favour, are just going to attract even more support, funding and general attention away from the middle of the road, struggling, SEN, non-academic - in fact, the children the system is failing already.

zzzzz Fri 09-Sep-16 23:37:30 shockshockshockshockshockshock

????

My DC2 has dyslexia and dyspraxia and gets not support at all at school. Perhaps you would like to explain your reaction?

RaisingSteam Fri 09-Sep-16 23:42:20 What worries me is that the bright and gifted children, who already have the odds stacked in their favour, are just going to attract even more support, funding and general attention away from the middle of the road, struggling, SEN, non-academic - in fact, the children the system is failing already.

I have one of each of those DCs and I fully agree with you.

are you basing your comment on fact or assumption? Do you actually live in an 11 plus area?

Yes, I do. My comment is based on personal experience of my own 3dc having all taken the 11+, and the experience of many friends and their children. The whole Grammar School thing is a big deal round here, for better or worse.

I know tutored children can still fail, but the pass marks of the 11+ are unnaturally raised because children spend hours a week for 1-2 years practising 11+ papers.
Average children from more wealthy families have a huge advantage over very bright children from poor families.
This is fact for the area I'm in, perhaps different for other areas.

LetitiaCropleysCookbook Fri 09-Sep-16 23:44:07

I would be interested in knowing which area you live in given that you think no one tutors for the test:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=64

I'm Guessing, based on the above forums, you are in the Wirral, Wiltshire, NI or Lincolnshire

zzzzz Fri 09-Sep-16 23:48:10 I'm shocked because you appear to think SEN is a recipe for academic failure. There are tons of adults with dyslexia who beat the odds and succeed.

Do you mean suceed academically or professonally?

Beating the odds is not the same as being supported at school, is it?

The school my DC2 was at refused to believe there was an issue because they were in top group for maths and literacy. We had to pay for a private assessment which they then confessed explained "a few things". However, they still didn't provided any support because DC2 wasn't under performing. Granted this is down to the individual school rather than the educational system. However, I don't think focus should be placed only on autistic children when it comes to SEN and academic ability.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/164270

There is a petition you can sign if you are against grammar school expansion. I just think it is wrong to label kids as failures at 11 and not good for society as whole. More effort should be made into making the poorer schools better but segregation is not the answer.

Average children from more wealthy families have a huge advantage over very bright children from poor families.

It was ever thus, and is so, whatever type of school you go to.

I would estimate that 90% of tutored children in our area are from ordinary - not poor, but certainly not wealthy - families, and are at state primaries. Parents see themselves as being forced into giving their children tutoring to compete with the wealthy families whose children are at private schools, where the 11+ is practically part of the curriculum. Unlike the state primaries, which largely ignore it.

given that you think no one tutors for the test:

Where did I say that? Of course children are tutored for the test. My argument is that I don't believe that you can tutor a child without the fundamental capability of passing, to pass the test. I think you can affect the outcome by a few marks , but no more than that.

Really not sure where to stand on this. I've taught in both a comp and a grammar. You could walk into a classroom at the grammar and tell which kids had been tutored within an inch of their lives to get there after the first lesson, and within a year they floundered.

I think the idea of them being university training grounds is a good idea, but then isn't that what Sixth Form is? I'm also really hesitant to separate at 11 but could possibly support a 14+.

If the aim is meritocratic, figures from Kent suggest grammars fail poor kids. The grammar I worked at was in a particularly wealthy area so intellectual and cultural capital would be high anyways. On balance I'm probably 60/40 against but can see the allure.

A clever kid who works hard is largely going to succeed whatever the environment.

zzzzz Sat 10-Sep-16 00:22:55However, I don't think focus should be placed only on autistic children when it comes to SEN and academic ability.

What are you on about now? WHO has said anything about focusing on autistic children?

The way that I escaped the council estate that I grew up on was via a Grammar School. Comprehensives are just a mechanism for keeping the poor in their place.

You could walk into a classroom at the grammar and tell which kids had been tutored within an inch of their lives to get there after the first lesson, and within a year they floundered.

How could you possibly know that? They might just as well have been untutored children who had just scraped a pass. You're always going to get children who have only just got through, whether they are tutored or not.

crazycatguy Sat 10-Sep-16 00:26:59 If the aim is meritocratic, figures from Kent suggest grammars fail poor kids. The grammar I worked at was in a particularly wealthy area so intellectual and cultural capital would be high anyways. On balance I'm probably 60/40 against but can see the allure.

I'm with you all the way. My DC is in a selective school but going through the process reveals the real flaws of the systems. I have friends who are going through the process this year, all I can do is tell them how to play
the system and believe me I will. It has nothing to do with ability ;-)

Those in favour of Grammars better hope they know what they are doing because parents like me are going to see their friends and family are well prepared. Good luck to all, you're going to need it.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if Grammars become wide spread, my DCs are sorted. All I'm going to say is be careful what you wish for...

ZZZZZ pm if you wish, I have nothing to defend as I've already benefitted from the shite 11 plus selection process. I also have firsthand knowledge of the 11 plus system in Herts, Buck, Slough and N.London. Can you say the same?

Redactio Sat 10-Sep-16 00:39:07 The way that I escaped the council estate that I grew up on was via a Grammar School. Comprehensives are just a mechanism for keeping the poor in their place.

That was how many years ag?. Please do tell me about the many, many children in Grammar schools today who have escaped poverty and deprivation thanks to the Grammar school they have just left...

Will there be grammar schools for children who display unusual practical ability in various fields?
DH for example struggles with classic academia. In his very specialist field he is awesome. My DB is the same and was in his 30s before he found it. Ds is shaping up the same.
Why when graduates are working minimum wage are we encouraging academia at the expense of turning out plumbers, carpenters , brickies, etc that have been skilled up in running their own admin functions efficiently? I'd rather we build trade schools turning out practical people with appropriate concommitant skills.
I have another dc who is academically brilliant.

It's all about "gifted children" isn't it ? And not the effect on other children.

In all my discussions on this subject and the pros and cons with colleagues, relatives, and parents, I only ever get one response - "BECAUSE I WANT MY SON/DAUGHTER TO GO TO A GRAMMAR SCHOOL". No empirical data, no assessment of the relative effects. Purely selfish reasons.