A politically acceptable proposal?

[heritager]

Educationally, we seem to be stuck, in this country. Lots (not all) people feel the comprehensive system doesn't work well enough. Lots (not all) people like grammar schools as an alternative - sometimes because it seems to be the only alternative on offer, see recent thread. Lots (not all) people hate that idea. Lots (not all) people go private, or wish to go private, to avoid perceived deficiencies.

Any solution has to be politically acceptable, as well as rational.

Here's a proposal I might call pupil premium on steroids.

Every pupil has an "educational cost" attached to them. This cost is higher if the pupil lives in a historically deprived post code (perhaps in several bands). It is higher if the pupil has diagnosed SEN (definitely in several bands). Add your own criteria here (discuss).

State school places are allocated more or less as now, with the modification: the school's funding is the sum of the funding allocated to all its pupils (perhaps plus a basic allocation for stability: discuss). The money doesn't have to be spent specifically on the child who brings it (optionally, we also keep PP: discuss). The effect is that schools with more deprived intake are automatically better funded, and so middle-class parents have an incentive to choose mixed-intake schools, thus discouraging segregation.

To make this acceptable to Tory voters: you can also take your child's educational cost to an independent school, topping up to the fee level from your own purse to what the school charges - but what you can take is discounted by say 20% (discuss), eg if your child's educational cost is £5k per annum, you get £4k pa off the school fees, and the state saves £1k compared to having to educate your child. At the same time, independent schools are encouraged to take more deprived pupils (topping up with bursaries) because they take less bursary funding than middle-class bursary recipients. For particular combinations of SEN and deprivation, the educational cost might fully meet the independent school fees: that is, the state might outsource the education of this pupil, as occasionally happens now, but more systematically.

Do you vote for that? Why, or why not? What would need to be changed to make it work?

This was one of the reasons the 'Assisted places' scheme was abolished in 1997 . This is because the Labour party wanted to play 'class' war without taking in to account the children affected were not the 'upper' class !

Another reason they were abolished was because the vast majority of children applying for assisted places were already attending the school.

I think apart from funding politicians need to stop interfering every couple of years.

One thing I think we could take from Australia is 'school of the air'. With the internet and other technology there should be some form of free lessons available to children who are ill, isolated or can't get to school for other reasons.

Lessons could also be put online for help with homework. I know lots of schools do put some stuff on line but there should be something more organised.

This should also be free for home schoolers if they want to take advantage of it.

Private schools should be left well alone. Although any child that is enrolled should be allowed to continue to the end of A level. Yes even if they may fail or get a low mark. No cull is to be permitted.
Ha Ha HA HA HA
Private schools keep their results up by kicking kids out
mercilessly
even days before the exams

I know of a kid whose dad donated a high six figure sum to the school but the child was still pushed out so as not to bring the results down

my own school invited people to "look at other options" every term

the only way a school might keep a kid on no matter what is if they were (a) royal (b) paid up front for their bright sibling too

Talkin that is the sad reality of it all. There have been schools who take on athletes from year 7 to 9. Then dump them. I just think it is unfair. If they accept them at year 7 then dump them after year 9. I agree private schools should be left well alone. Although it may me navie of me to think that the school is obligated to allow them to carry on. After all aren't they a product of their school?

Grikes
I went to private school.
They are businesses - even the ones with "charitable status"

If they want to call themselves a school and not have to charge VAT on the fees (as my college did back in the stone age)
they should comply with Ofsted and ISIS inspections

If they want to be "in loco parentis" for children, they should provide evidence that the foul acceptance of past habits is long gone.

As for results - they are a business
I was an accountancy student. After every exam cycle, the failures got fired.
Having been in Private school I did not find it odd.
My state school colleagues did.

Talkin AFAIK all private schools are inspected. Foul practices went on in many other places, including state schools, churches, hospitals etc. Private schools were not alone in this.

caroldecker
Why is that the govt's responsibility and not the parents? Again, state schools have to be because parent's cannot choose, but why should the govt get involved in a private arrangement?
but you do not think they should be ......

But many organisations that work with children require CRB checks without OFSTED. OFSTED is much more than just safeguarding. It's s sledge hammer to crack a nut.

Anybody asking for CRB has rather a problem as it ceased to exist several years ago

Ofsted has its faults (DH deals with them all the time)

but they are MUCH better than what went before

QE head teacher had CCTV covering the bedrooms of every child in the school and had set the shower windows so he could see in from his bedroom
his pupils are mostly overseas
until ofsted swooped, he had free rein

Fine DBS.

Elly
but you know that CRB and DBS are entirely different ....
DH has both - his shiny new DBS arrived this week
and the whole basis is changed
but still utterly pointeless

What checks should there be on the providers of fee paying education ?
Bearing in minds that many parents actually want sexist, racist, homophobic education when they cough their cash ....

should private schools be allowed to promote misinformation, bigotry and hate ?
should private schools still be allowed to cover up for child abusers ?

I look at America which has copped out of the decision and the result is racist mysogynist homophobic creationist disinformation - and Trump as potential president

holistic outcomes and all that
reap what you sow

Bearing in minds that many parents actually want sexist, racist, homophobic education when they cough their cash

Which private schools are these? Name and shame.

www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview

Direct quote from government website:

Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) checks are now called Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks.

ellymay
Which private schools are these? Name and shame.
lets start with the multiple Islamic ones that been shut down in the last year
and then the Jewish ones that segregate
and then the creationist ones
or the Exclusive Brethren ones

Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) checks are now called Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks.
Bless
look at the criteria - a million miles away

if you think that Private school parents are up to the job of keeping tabs on teachers, you are an advert for Ofsted

talkin

Parents are responsible for providing an education. I see little difference between private school and home ed/private tutors. Are you suggesting all home ed and private tutors are ofsted checked?

Are you suggesting all home ed and private tutors are ofsted checked?
they are breaking the law if they are not - did you not know
or do you not care

All private education providers over a certain size (to do with numbers of children and hours of education provided) have to be registered with the DfE and meet the Independent Schools Standards. As part of the registration process, Ofsted may visit the school, and Ofsted can be requested to visit the school at any point to determine if the school is meeting the ISS. In most cases, independent schools opt to be inspected by another inspectorate who may have other criteria on their inspection framework in addition to the ISS requirements. Ofsted cannot decide unilaterally to inspect an independent school, they have to be commissioned by DfE. In most cases, Ofsted will never go into an independent school: if they do, it is most likely in response to some particular concern that has been raised with them.

Personally I think this strikes the right balance between state oversight and letting the private sector flourish on its own terms. It's worth noting BTW that whether a child is at a state school, independent school or HEed, the local authority still has the responsibility for safeguarding

I realise that this has moved on, but I work in a more affluent area of the country and I can tell you that my school suffers from under funding (like most schools) just because we are in a more affluent area doesn't mean that we have access to more revenue streams.

As PH47 posted this is exactly what is happening know and frankly (IMO) it doesn't work.

And I work in a state school.

Boney
I'm in Hampshire.
The funding formula stinks
all of the jungle drums I'm listening too say to wait for the autumn statement

Talkin I was not aware that private tutors and parents home eding need to register with Ofsted.

I am unexpectedly a fan of the state school system in the US.

In a nutshell, there are strict catchments (if you live in street X you go to school Y, very very limited exceptions); all schools have to cater for all abilities and needs; all schools have to accept a child who lives in catchment (there are some special provision schools but for very very severe SEN); and there is no maximum class size. HOWEVER schools are big - think at least 200 in a year - so they naturally have a range of abilities, as well as being able to offer a range of subjects and classes. Classes are somewhere in the 18-22 range, so adding one or two extra children doesn't make a huge difference, and with 10 or so classes, there is lots of scope to spread around the extra numbers (and as we have a large transient population there are always people leaving). And people pay a lot of money in their taxes to support schools: in my town, the property taxes (like council tax) are on average $2500 a month, and they recently agreed to increase this by an average of $200 a month to fund the renovation of one of the local elementary schools.

The system is so completely different to the UK system that there's no way that it could be wholesale imported across, but I do like having strict catchments and schools that are almost all able to support all children to thrive - much like comprehensives were supposed to do, I guess

OlennasWimple

My school has a yearly intake of 220 pupils (we are oversubscribed) our average class size is 30 pupils.the pupils with "severe" SEND have smaller classes.

talk I'm in Hampshire too! (iPad wanted to autocorrect to hampshite!)

My DS gets sen funding attached to him. But the biggest problem Ime is that the school don't have to use that funding for him specifically. And because the don't/won't the la say he doesn't need an EHCP because he needs no more than the 6k funding, (which is wrong and illegal!)
By devolving funding to schools for pupils on low income and Sen without ring fencing it means schools are often keen or even forced to ignore some needs because they need the funding elsewhere - eg to support the most able pupils to get better results and drag up their 5 A-C.

But you are 100% correct the system needs a dramatic overhaul.

Olennas
I was born in New York
the US system is like the UK system ... great .... but
eg
schools are funded from local taxes

• Greenwich Connecticut has amazing schools
• Aberdeen WA has shit schools

schools do not allow religion

• catholics and creationists do not go to state schools so do not get their view challenged (9% of all US kids)

schools may not promote contraception and family planning

• not an issue on the coasts, huge issue in the appalachians

on the other hand
Y Y Y Y Y to property taxes - the UK could sort so many problems in so few years it makes me ill
Y Y Y Y to big schools : a big school = a big pastoral teal = economies of scale for all ends of the leaning spectrum

but
N N N N to driving licences at 16 with the drinking age purportedly at 21

It's not just private schools that keep their results by kicking students out. Many academies do the same. These are also businesses based on results and profit. That's why it was such a fear when they wanted to turn all schools into academies. It was like mass privatisation of the education system but with government funds - eg our taxes.

Again have moved on a bit - In terms of putting grammar schools/ better resourced schools in more deprived areas with selection by postcode wouldn't this only work with controls on the housing i.e the people living in deprived areas were not allowed to sell them to richer people? Also landlords not allowed to sell to or rent at increased rent to richer people (I say people because you will have parents but also those planning a family or richer grandparents or just those waiting to make an even bigger profit when house appreciates due to a good school.)

Unfortunately I think it just comes down to having as many good schools as possible everywhere. Also getting as many parents to take an interest in and value education and help their children. Lots of parents of all backgrounds and class do this already but I thought things that might help- encouraging parents and giving opportunities such as access to libraries with ideas on how to read with your child and use the Internet with them, adult education especially literacy and numeracy
so parents can help, flexible working hours.
Unfortunately we don't have a bottomless pit of money ..,