Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools part 2

[noblegiraffe]

Continuation of the first thread from here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2702565-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools

Herds it's more than 'encouraging primary school heads' that's required, it's actively seeking out specific pupils capable of attaining L5s at the end of Y6 early enough to help encourage them to apply and help equip them for any tests.

noble MN threads are full of parents who go way over the top. Also, the CEM tests are different creatures, so a lot of this stuff about needing to know the Y6 syllabus are redundant. Not that anyone will agree with me on MN but heyho :)

But goodbye the existence of parents (and apparently there are lots of them) who go 'way over the top' means that for your children to get into these schools, you also need to go 'way over the top'. How can an untutored child compete against one of a similar level who has done dozens of past papers and hours of preparation?

goodbyestranger

Bertrand sorry to be stubborn but it is not customary to name a school or group of schools which would identify a poster. Not my problem

What bollocks, how on earth do you think you will be identified?

You do seem to have a bit of agenda, against BertrandRussell

Herds

Improve how much parents talk to preschool children.
Improve how much informal maths and general knowledge they teach to their preschool children.
Teach parents to rephrase rather than correct children's speech, and to use complex vocabulary with their children and each other.

Help those parents to help their children with their homework, and to have a "learning friendly" household where books are in abundant supply, whether from the library or owned by the household. Including for adults.

Continue to help parents to teach informal maths, current affairs, general knowledge etc. to their children (and to improve their own skills). Improve society's attitude in general to high level learning and in particular to learning of maths (the biggest difficulty with the "I was never any good at it" brigade), but also society's attitudes to experts, and to accurate up to date knowledge about current affairs (look at how many people watch news versus entertainment).

Help schools to identify children early who have potential (but of course children from struggling and less-well-educated families will already be short of their potential on entering school).

Give those children (and only those children, because parents who are not struggling will be able to practice with their own children or pay a tutor) access to additional tuition, and time to practice when they are not being expected to help at home and/or take part in family activities.

Do you really think all those things are going to happen?

goodbye More than that, it's getting all children up to their potential before starting school and giving some of them a big boost upon entering school. Children who go to grammar schools come from completely different homes right from the start, they don't go along the same pathway till year 5 and then suddenly get tuition.

I live in Kent. Not a million miles from Broadstairs, Canterbury, Margate, Faversham, Ashford, Sittingbourne, Maidstone and Dover.

Have I now identified myself?

IfTheCapFitsWearIt unfortunately I've been identified three or four times already (obviously deleted by MN) so I'm absolutely not naming the particular school or schools I know well. Very definitely not bollocks. I have no agenda whatsoever against Bertrand, we agree on plenty of things, but it's just that on this one she's way behind the times and does generalize from Kent. The Kent system isn't one anyone is suggesting replicating so it's irrelevant to a large extent.

noble that level of preparation has never ever been necessary but people who do it and whose kids pass will claim it is and people who do it and whose kids don't pass will claim they couldn't get in even with an insane level of prep. Too seldom will anyone listen to the more sane parents who don't go over the top and whose kids get a place and at the moment no-one is listening to what the HTs are saying about the CEM tests and no prep being required. It's a very big problem for those who think they need to prep but can't, which is why the message is important.

Goodbye- they why not just pick some schools from another area for us to talk about? You should choose, because if I do, you will say that I have deliberately picked the ones who do nothing for disadvantaged children.

drspouse yes agreed the earlier the better. That's what top universities say the secondary schools need to be doing and the secondary schools say the primaries need to be doing and so it goes on. Of course the earliest possible intervention is the optimum.

Try the Birmingham schools then Bertrand.

goodbyestranger - Second, HTs of grammars will obviously have relationships with most or all of the primary heads in their area ... I've no idea why you'd think any different.

Perhaps you can tell me what relationship the selective secondaries in my area have with the primary schools? You're evidently are more informed than I am.

Suggest one.

No you need to do them all Bertrand, all the Birmingham schools, to get a feel for the drift. Otherwise you'll say I'm picking the one with the best results.

Petty.

That didn't use to be the case. I'm second generation grammar. My dad went to grammar school under the old system (in Bathgate, Scotland). He came from a deprived former mining village with little material support. However, my grandmother who left school at 14 fought tooth and nail to support him (even begged for him not to be chucked out for gambling!). It quite frankly changed his life and opened up his world. He sat his civil service exams and ended up as an IT security team leader in the DH. His brothers and sisters however had a very different experience (complicated by undiagnosed SEN and in my uncle's case time off with TB). However, my dad also underperformed due to undiagnosed SEN. He has dyslexia and couldn't meet the language requirement for History at Uni without support that didn't exist. Anyway, my point seems to be that we can't compare the two systems. The past is a different country...
At my school, I would say the tutoring issue affects those most on the borderline. We are a superselective though. I strongly believe that familiarisation with the format and working to time should be all that is required. Certainly that's all I currently plan for my son. However, I also plan to avoid the other side of town when we look at moving due to the secondary catchment. Let's not kid ourselves that there are no other forms of selection going on. The only solution to that would be all state schools, non-selective, assigned by lottery. Oddly enough, that's not a popular policy/

Children at grammar schools- particularly super selective grammars-come from a huge range of primary schools. How are the Heads supposed to have relationships with all of them?

Actually, one thing I have noticed about ds's school- the Head actually does have a relationship with the Heads of most of the feeder primary schools, because they are mostly in walking distance. Useful when talking about integrating children with issues- and when SATs results look a bit dodgy.......

"The only solution to that would be all state schools, non-selective, assigned by lottery. Oddly enough, that's not a popular policy"

Would be for me!

Mum what makes you think they don't? It would be very odd, unless the primaries in question have refused to engage, as some do.

*I agree that a lifting of the ban won't help many if the most disadvantaged DC on the UK. The problems they face are far too complex to be fixed by education of any sort ( and I'm sorry to say that actually. I was very committed to the Blair Education X 3 campaign).

But a selective school might make a hell of a difference to a kid coming from a solidly working class family.*

I completely agree. I think we actually expect too much of schools in terms of what they can do to combat socio-economic problems. It's like trying to slice a carrot with a spoon and then blaming the spoon.

And I certainly wouldn't deny that an individual child might very well do better in a particular grammar than in a particular comp. I just think that statistics show that more children will do worse under a selective system than under a comprehensive.

King Edward's Grammar Aston Birmingham admitted 25% of students on Pupil Premium last year area 36% !. Is that good enough Bertrand!

However, as i have said up-thread whether a child is eligible for pupil premium/ FSM or not is not collective evidence in determining 'prosperity' or disadvantage.

goodbyestranger Too seldom will anyone listen to the more sane parents who don't go over the top and whose kids get a place

What do you consider as over the top?

goodbyestranger no-one is listening to what the HTs are saying about the CEM tests and no prep being required. Likely because some head teachers are saying the complete opposite. Ours has broken a 30 year agreement not to prepare DCs for the test and now does preperation sessions for all year 5 children.

sandy of course by no means all of those eligible for FSM will be L5 students. But that minor point gets forgotten on these threads. Our school's numbers mirror the number of pupils on FSM who have achieved L5 in the area. Of course I've already taken the point about potential being suppressed at an earlier stage.

So in many primary schools, in CEM area, why are lots of high level five children not passing? The parents didn't tutor them or have them tutored as they belived their dc were bright enough(as they had been high achievers throughout school) and the test was supposed to be tutor proof.

Why is it that in CEM test you can score very very highly in maths, but be let down by non verbal and or verbal reasoning, that the children have not covered in school or the time pressures put on them for this one off, life changing test?

Mum:

1. The sorts of posters noble referred to.

1. Perhaps ask those who developed the test in that case Mum? Perhaps your head now recognizes the CEM tests as being fairer and is more prepared to give it a go? Also, you say all Y5s. The sort of prep s/he'll be doing will do none of those kids any harm.

"King Edward's Grammar Aston Birmingham admitted 25% of students on Pupil Premium last year area 36% !. Is that good enough Bertrand"

Yes, it's excellent. A note of caution- that is children who have been eligible for FSM any time in the last 6 years. No indication of how many are currently on FSM, which would indicate continued deprivation. But good to see. Handsworth Grammar is the same.

IfTheCapFitsWearIt the test was supposed to be tutor proof.

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/16/state-school-pupils-worse-tutor-proof-11-plus-tests